[PGT] Jets 3 Flames 2

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

That's the part that I get worked up about. At least the Avs had MacKinnon and the Flames could say they got outclassed by a top-3 player in the game.

But these Jets are mediocre, at best. They're missing two of their top players and all of their defense. But the Flames played to their level, and even below it, today.

The Flames were constantly behind the play and spent ten minutes at a time stuck in neutral in their own end. Against a team stacked with elite players? OK. Against the Jets?? That's a bit worrying.

That's what makes me nervous about Game 3... the Flames need to come out actually playing above the level of their opponent, or, odds are, they go into Game 4 down 2-1 and the odds are really stacked against them. Maybe the Flames take control of the momentum tomorrow and force it their way, but I have yet to really see this core do that in the playoffs, so I would be surprised. But happy.

Yep. Our top line and top D pairing should be owning these guys. It was supposed to be Hellebuyck saving the day as that team was getting crushed all season in advanced metrics. If the balance of play 5on5 is even close to even that’s a big win for the Jets.

Gio is a competitor and I love the guy. I know plus/minus is frowned upon but he is a pretty huge minus in his playoff career. It’s weird and disappointing all at once.

Anyway now we’re back to one bad bounce, missed call or hot goalie away from real trouble. Against a very thin team.

[3rd liner]

It’s water under the bridge but I despise how there are NO media narratives mentioning the Ehlers attempted flying elbow. Ehlers is the ‘hero’ after a bad giveaway. That’s all they are talking. Could you imagine if Tkachuk threw that? 5 min, maybe a suspension.
Just to clarify- is leaving your feet leading with an elbow not a penalty?
It’s too important a series to settle scores now . So, next season- Little Nikolaj is due for having his teeth knocked out.

[djsFlames]

Yeah. I'd like to see Gio flex his Norris hockey IQ in post season play. Just start with not being a liability shift to shift. Even if he were playing regular season like it would be an improvement.

I'm not too concerned about him showing up adequately enough against this opponent but should they make it to next round he'll need to be leaps better out there.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by djsFlames

Yeah. I'd like to see Gio flex his Norris hockey IQ in post season play. Just start with not being a liability shift to shift. Even if he were playing regular season like it would be an improvement.

I'm not too concerned about him showing up adequately enough against this opponent but should they make it to next round he'll need to be leaps better out there.

I don’t get this. His pinch wasn’t perfect but the D need to be able to pinch and Dube was running around. Gotta trust your teammates

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

I don’t get this. His pinch wasn’t perfect but the D need to be able to pinch and Dube was running around. Gotta trust your teammates

Gio has to help us produce, and he hasn’t been. He has to be a difference maker - driving the transition game, generating offence. This is the role of your #1 defenceman. If he can’t do it during the playoffs, it’s a problem. He, much like others, has to be significantly better in game 3.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

Gio has to help us produce, and he hasn’t been. He has to be a difference maker - driving the transition game, generating offence. This is the role of your #1 defenceman. If he can’t do it during the playoffs, it’s a problem. He, much like others, has to be significantly better in game 3.

I actually have liked the D jumping in a lot more than during the regular season this year, which was brutal

But I agree, I hope to see success with it

[Itse]

I get that ragging on Monahan and Gaudreau is popular now, but I don't think the problem is with them.

I've also been following the Rangers series, and their top duo of Zibanejad and Panarin (especially Panarin) look about the same against the Hurricanes as Monahan and Gaudreau look against the Jets: mostly invisible and unable to create any offense. The difference is that we know those guys can bring it. They are not the problem.

What's going on in that series is, in part, that the Rangers are being thoroughly outcoached. David Quinn is a rookie coach who I see as very similar to Ward: knows enough of the basics to be roughly competent, but is just out of his depth in a playoff situation, where you'd need to make constant small adjustments, consider individual matchups, find ways to exploit the other teams weaknesses, and just generally be able to do more than the basics.

I don't believe this core our coach killers at all, on the contrary. They're extremely coachable and generally follow the gameplan rigorously, what ever it is, even to a fault. If the plan isn't working, they're not trying other things. This creates a situation where bad coaching can very easily make the whole team and each individual player look worse than they are.

Or better than they are. When the gameplan is working, they look frickin fantastic, like when they won their conference with ease.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by AC

Yeah, I could see those 3 being pretty snarky when referring to Maurice's comments.

However I'm not convinced that would have helped the team. Seems like had that happened the team would have had a similar performance regardless, and then the narrative would be that our management just got suckered into the distraction.

If a player can't "get up" for a playoff game, I don't think it's the coach's fault.

That's a bizarre take. It may be stupid that lots of star players need a coach to get them up and motivate them properly, even for playoffs. But clearly it's a thing, or else there wouldn't be elite coaches known for being able to do just that.

You seem very dismissive of a coaches' impact on a game, specifically playoffs (speaking of other posts as well). I guess I respectfully believe the opposite.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by AC

Maybe.

Personally, I think that's passing the blame from the players when the leadership group and the individual players are responsible for dictating their own intensity.

Ahhh, this makes sense. This is Jiri's take as well (not his exact words just my interpretation of his take), and to be honest it comes off more as being upset with the players and their lack of ability to motivate themselves. That is true and pisses me off, too, but ultimately it's a bit of a fallacy.

Players not being able to motivate themselves does not equal a better coach also not being able to motivate them, which your posts kind of suggest. Your words make it sound more like it's a philosophy thing for you. Like you almost don't care if a better coach could get more out of them if they can't or are unwilling to do it themselves.

[jayswin]

I guess I'm more simple in my desires for my sports teams. It'd be great to have self motivating players but if an elite coach came in and could get elite performances from our stars and we were a serious threat, I'm happy. I don't care that the players are partiers or don't get emotional enough on their own.

Just get the wins somehow. And elite coaches clearly get more out of rosters than mediocre and less skilled coaches. Dismissing that or not believing it isn't correct just because you believe it should be on the players, imo.


I should clarify that ultimately I don't think this roster is good enough to be a contender with any coach, but I'm just questioning the more general assertion that they wouldn't be better with an elite coach or that the lie of responsibility is with the players. They're human, and need various styles of motivation and elite coaches do that better than others and get the sum of the parts to achieve more.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

I don’t get this. His pinch wasn’t perfect but the D need to be able to pinch and Dube was running around. Gotta trust your teammates

Yeah Giordano isn't the target for that goal it's Dube ... and I'm not even pissed at him.

He was hard on the backcheck, but picked the guy already covered, and even then almost caught the guy.

Giordano was doing what he does effectively, they made a good chip around him, and Dube blew the coverage.

[Sylvanfan]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

Couple of things:

- Elias Lindholm is 9th on the team in 5v5 ice time right now, unless he is nursing an injury that is something Ward needs to fix.

You do realize that he played over 22 minutes yesterday nearly 2 minutes more than any other forward and lead all forwards in PK time, and was tied for tops in PP ice time. He was on the ice more than any other player on the team yesterday. I don't thnk a player who was injured would be getting that much usage on special teams.

So is your beef that they should take him off the PK and start using him at ES instead?

[Bingo]

Yeah they took Lindholm down to just 8 minutes five on five in game one because he had to kill 6 minutes in penalties.

Guys on both teams have to be tapered.

I honestly think the venom should be on the powerplay, and not at the five on five game at all. They need to generate more five on five but they're not giving up much, and doing fine.

But that powerplay is a mess.

The other thing we've seen with the Bennett / Ryan swap is the fact that they need to upgrade that fourth line badly. If Derek Ryan is sitting at 27% CF% through two games you know the guys with him are weak.

I'd get Rinaldo off there for sure and see if that helps.

But Gaudreau and Lindholm are top four in most metrics five on five, the top line hasn't been the problem.

Noah Hanifin has been a pleasant surprise too.

Sometimes a team can't find the flow, pucks bounce and every one pushes too much. That's what I saw yesterday.

[Monahammer]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Yeah they took Lindholm down to just 8 minutes five on five in game one because he had to kill 6 minutes in penalties.

Guys on both teams have to be tapered.

I honestly think the venom should be on the powerplay, and not at the five on five game at all. They need to generate more five on five but they're not giving up much, and doing fine.

But that powerplay is a mess.

The other thing we've seen with the Bennett / Ryan swap is the fact that they need to upgrade that fourth line badly. If Derek Ryan is sitting at 27% CF% through two games you know the guys with him are weak.

I'd get Rinaldo off there for sure and see if that helps.

But Gaudreau and Lindholm are top four in most metrics five on five, the top line hasn't been the problem.

Noah Hanifin has been a pleasant surprise too.

Sometimes a team can't find the flow, pucks bounce and every one pushes too much. That's what I saw yesterday.

I have found Hanifin somewhat lacking, I feel like he had gained confidence and was much more active in the play leading up to the shut down, but has looked like beginning of season hanifin again since coming back. Not impressed.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Sylvanfan

You do realize that he played over 22 minutes yesterday nearly 2 minutes more than any other forward and lead all forwards in PK time, and was tied for tops in PP ice time. He was on the ice more than any other player on the team yesterday. I don't thnk a player who was injured would be getting that much usage on special teams.

So is your beef that they should take him off the PK and start using him at ES instead?

Yeah, this is what happens when you look at stats in isolation. It’s be nice to get Lindholm more time at 5v5, but he’s our #1 penalty killer and him centering the PK (including being the lone Forward on the 5-on-3 for pretty much the whole two minutes) is a big reason why it’s been so good.

The key to getting Lindholm more 5v5 time is taking less penalties. He’s our best two-way Forward.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

I have found Hanifin somewhat lacking, I feel like he had gained confidence and was much more active in the play leading up to the shut down, but has looked like beginning of season hanifin again since coming back. Not impressed.

Could it be that he's doing less wrong so you're not noticing him at all which is a good thing?

He leads all six defenseman in ...

shot attempts for
shot attempts against
goals for
3rd in xGF
1st in a landslide for xGA
1st in xGF%

He's literally giving up nothing, but has been on the ice for two five on five goals for.

He's the only defenseman with a five on five point.

Not sure there is more that he could be doing. He's been great.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Yeah, this is what happens when you look at stats in isolation. It’s be nice to get Lindholm more time at 5v5, but he’s our #1 penalty killer and him centering the PK (including being the lone Forward on the 5-on-3 for pretty much the whole two minutes) is a big reason why it’s been so good.

The key to getting Lindholm more 5v5 time is taking less penalties. He’s our best two-way Forward.

I went down that rabbit hole after game one writing the game story.

Lindholm only 8 five on five minutes ... hurt! .... wait he played 20 minutes ... ah double special team guy

[SuperMatt18]

Yeah that was my bad, didn't check the overall numbers when I was sitting there at 1130 PM wondering why he was 9th in ES TOI.

Guess the take away is stay out of the penalty box instead, that way Lindholm can play more at 5v5.

He is one of our 5v5 play drivers, so if he's being ground into the dust on special teams that's going to hurt us at 5v5.

[Classic_Sniper]

It almost begs the question, should Ward think about replacing Lindholm with another player? I know he’s probably the Flames’ most effective penalty killing center, but does the reward of playing Lindholm on the PK, detract too much at even strength because he’s not playing enough 5 on 5.

That’s the question. In my opinion, I’d like to see Ward and co find a better grouping of players on the PK that doesn’t involve the top 6 forwards. If they can find a respectable replacement, then Lindholm will receive more minutes and that should improve the team’s overall 5 on 5 play.


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[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

It almost begs the question, should Ward think about replacing Lindholm with another player? I know he’s probably the Flames’ most effective penalty killing center, but does the reward of playing Lindholm on the PK, detract too much at even strength because he’s not playing enough 5 on 5.

That’s the question. In my opinion, I’d like to see Ward and co find a better grouping of players on the PK that doesn’t involve the top 6 forwards. If they can find a respectable replacement, then Lindholm will receive more minutes and that should improve the team’s overall 5 on 5 play.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

That'd be nice, but you need great players on the PK to have a good PK, and limiting the effectiveness of the other team's PP is just as important as scoring goals (which Lindholm also does).

For perspective, Bergeron and Marchand are both in the top forwards on the PK in Boston, Kopitar is the top PK guy in LA, Couturier in PHI, O'Reilly in St. Louis, etc.

The reason why Lindholm is as great as he is (and in my opinion, our best player) is that he's excellent in both ends of the ice in any situation. He's a true two-way forward and potential emerging as an elite one at that based on his defensive performance while still contributing heavy offense. It would be foolish to make moves to utilize his defensive ability less, as that's just as important as his offensive contributions.

The answer to "should Ward look at replacing Lindholm with another player" is no.