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Old 10-19-2017, 12:15 PM   #121
Flash Walken
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In Russia they actually interfere in elections.
Setting the bar high.

"The Flames didn't endorse a candidate" except broadcast to 19000 people on their jumbotron to vote for bill smith and let their executive suite publicly proclaim using their corporate social media that it was time for a change, it was time to vote for bill smith, or have the chairman of the league say openly the city of Calgary needed to choose new leadership...

How can people say this with a straight face? What sort of reality are they living in? The Flames had a clear and obvious endorsement of Bill Smith and a clear and obvious antagonism towards Nenshi.

I think comparisons to US political races are often fast and loose but in this instance it's valid. You have to reject our shared reality to think the Flames didn't have a strong horse in this race and attempted to influence the election directly to get a more favourable climate for arena negotiations.

Let's just all agree the sky is blue and Bill Smith was CSEC's preferred mayoral candidate.
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Old 10-19-2017, 12:31 PM   #122
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I don't have a problem with the Flames clearly endorsing the candidate they think will cater to their demands. My problem is when they do so, and then try to pretend that "they don't want to get involved in politics" when everyone plainly sees that they are.
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Old 10-19-2017, 12:43 PM   #123
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Basically that ^ it's the lying through grins to the public about what their position is when it's pretty easy to see. Never mind the Nenshi=Trump comments and such..

Any one who is on CP posting is obviously not that soured but yeah I will say I'm less inclined to go all out and spend a wad of cash at the dome since all the drama. I like the team, I like Brad, Craig and Marty. I think they're class acts and good people. But the other side of upper management and the ownership kind of gross me out from a personal standpoint. I think they're greedy, lack integrity, are egotistical, and clearly care about their own interests above this city's well being, which extends to the fans as well, and I wouldn't want anything to do with any of them in real life. But alas, I am invested in their product nonetheless. As long as they stay hidden from sight aside from arena negotiations (which damn well better happen) then I can live with it.
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Old 10-19-2017, 12:48 PM   #124
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CSEC seem to differ on that thought. They're demanding the same arena deal the Oilers got

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Funding for a new arena and product and marketing strategies for a business aren't exactly the same thing. That said, doesn't mean that I agree just because in Edmonton, Calgary too.

But what Edmonton "got" from an arena deal from the city is in my opinion a point of relevance because both municipal governments are run and funded substantially by the province. So for the Flames to say, we are a similar business to the Oilers, looking to do the same thing in the same province so we should get the same structure to bring a similar service to the other half of your provincial citizens, is a much more relevant connection than what the Oilers include in their STH packages. But that said, I'm also comfortable with the fact the city points to arena deals elsewhere as an example of what deals should look like.
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Old 10-19-2017, 12:49 PM   #125
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Originally Posted by Flash Walken View Post
Setting the bar high.

"The Flames didn't endorse a candidate" except broadcast to 19000 people on their jumbotron to vote for bill smith and let their executive suite publicly proclaim using their corporate social media that it was time for a change, it was time to vote for bill smith, or have the chairman of the league say openly the city of Calgary needed to choose new leadership...

How can people say this with a straight face? What sort of reality are they living in? The Flames had a clear and obvious endorsement of Bill Smith and a clear and obvious antagonism towards Nenshi.

I think comparisons to US political races are often fast and loose but in this instance it's valid. You have to reject our shared reality to think the Flames didn't have a strong horse in this race and attempted to influence the election directly to get a more favourable climate for arena negotiations.

Let's just all agree the sky is blue and Bill Smith was CSEC's preferred mayoral candidate.
I'm sure Smith was their preferred candidate. They never denied that. But the jumbotron was an ad. If you are suggesting they did it for free (or even a discount) or denied any other candidate the ability to have ads in the Dome, I'd like some proof of that.

I'm not sure what you mean by "executive suite". Was there an ad over the owners' box?
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Old 10-19-2017, 01:40 PM   #126
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I'm sure Smith was their preferred candidate. They never denied that. But the jumbotron was an ad. If you are suggesting they did it for free (or even a discount) or denied any other candidate the ability to have ads in the Dome, I'd like some proof of that.

I'm not sure what you mean by "executive suite". Was there an ad over the owners' box?
Proclaiming something to be an Ad - to imply that categorization or label somehow changes the substance of whatever was broadcast - and then asking your opponent in a debate to provide evidence they clearly have no access to ... does nothing to make you persuasive.
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Old 10-19-2017, 01:44 PM   #127
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Originally Posted by Flash Walken View Post
Setting the bar high.

"The Flames didn't endorse a candidate" except broadcast to 19000 people on their jumbotron to vote for bill smith and let their executive suite publicly proclaim using their corporate social media that it was time for a change, it was time to vote for bill smith, or have the chairman of the league say openly the city of Calgary needed to choose new leadership...

How can people say this with a straight face? What sort of reality are they living in? The Flames had a clear and obvious endorsement of Bill Smith and a clear and obvious antagonism towards Nenshi.

I think comparisons to US political races are often fast and loose but in this instance it's valid. You have to reject our shared reality to think the Flames didn't have a strong horse in this race and attempted to influence the election directly to get a more favourable climate for arena negotiations.

Let's just all agree the sky is blue and Bill Smith was CSEC's preferred mayoral candidate.
Exactly. CSEC, as a corporation is allowed to endorse a candidate in order to get a deal that is better for themselves. This is exactly what we all do when we vote, we vote for our own self interest (or should).

What bothers me about this is the holier than thou attitude of CSEC, King and Bettmen in claiming that their arena announcement had nothing to do with politics. Its insulting, just like the "math" they provide for their "fair" arena deal.
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Old 10-19-2017, 01:46 PM   #128
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Proclaiming something to be an Ad - to imply that categorization or label somehow changes the substance of whatever was broadcast - and then asking your opponent in a debate to provide evidence they clearly have no access to ... does nothing to make you persuasive.
You have it backwards. I don't have to prove that it was anything other than what it appeared to be - an ad. And a paid ad does indeed change the context.

You know who else says Smith bought ads in the Dome and McMahon? Nenshi.

"Mr. Smith is spending an enormous amount of money - TV ads in mayoral elections, who thought of that? Buying out the Saddledome and McMahon Stadium ads, doing push polls every single night and this is an extraordinary use of money," said the mayor who repeated his contention Smith's campaign platform is frustratingly vague.
http://www.calgarysun.com/2017/10/13...ection-nemesis
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Old 10-19-2017, 05:01 PM   #129
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You have it backwards. I don't have to prove that it was anything other than what it appeared to be - an ad. And a paid ad does indeed change the context.

You know who else says Smith bought ads in the Dome and McMahon? Nenshi.
Please refrain from letting reality get in the way of nonsense conspiracy theories.
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Old 10-19-2017, 05:53 PM   #130
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Gio's jumping on something I said to try and paint me as a lunatic to undermine my point, but no one is actually making a conspiracy argument.

I wasn't at the games, did Nenshi have an Ad on the jumbo tron? Did anyone else running for office advertise on the Flames jumbo tron? Inquiring minds want to know.

Do the Flames have a say in who advertises in their arena during their hockey games?

Do I really have to actually explain this? Are we really debating who CSEC's preferred candidate was in this election?

Beuller? Beuller?
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Old 10-19-2017, 06:02 PM   #131
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Maybe.

It's my understanding that the Sprint Center (which was built specifically to try to attract an NBA and/or NHL team) has done so well for Kansas City without a major tenant that they're no longer trying to woo a team there.


Look at the deal the Flames wanted: City pays $230 million up-front with no mechanism to recoup any of those costs. Annual costs to pay for free transit to any events in the building and additional police working the games. No rent or property taxes paid to the city and the city covers the provincial property tax on the building. City receives no revenue from any events held in the building. CSEC gets first rights to develop the surrounding land and receives a portion of the revenue from the Casino and event parking that currently go to the Stampede.

The city could tell CSEC to stuff it and build an concert/events centre without concern for trying to get all the NHL bells & whistles ... No NHL practice rink (probably drops the price by $100 million right there) no "world's largest" scoreboard (that's tens of millions); no NHL-calibre dressing room and training facility (more millions saved). They also wouldn't need a dozen different exclusive club and suite options (although, those might be lucrative enough to pay for themselves).

A concert-first venue could probably be had in the $300 million range. That's only slightly more than what CSEC wants the city to pay now, but the city would receive all revenue generated by the building. The city would almost-certainly come out ahead during the life of the building over what CSEC is asking for.
This is an interesting observation. Given the concessions the CSEC is asking of the city, one has to wonder if it is more economically viable for the city to build a modern event centre independent of the CSEC's contribution. I imagine that is the very last thing the CSEC wants.
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Old 10-19-2017, 06:05 PM   #132
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Proclaiming something to be an Ad - to imply that categorization or label somehow changes the substance of whatever was broadcast - and then asking your opponent in a debate to provide evidence they clearly have no access to ... does nothing to make you persuasive.
If the CSEC gave the ad space for free as opposed to Smith having bought it, then it should be disclosed as a campaign contribution:

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A candidate must declare campaign contributions funded from any person, corporation, trade union, or employee organization by completing a Candidate Campaign Contribution and Disclosure Statement Form
http://www.municipalaffairs.alberta....ection-act-faq
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Old 10-19-2017, 07:06 PM   #133
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Gio's jumping on something I said to try and paint me as a lunatic to undermine my point, but no one is actually making a conspiracy argument.

I wasn't at the games, did Nenshi have an Ad on the jumbo tron? Did anyone else running for office advertise on the Flames jumbo tron? Inquiring minds want to know.

Do the Flames have a say in who advertises in their arena during their hockey games?

Do I really have to actually explain this? Are we really debating who CSEC's preferred candidate was in this election?

Beuller? Beuller?
I believe I conceded that the Flames obviously preferred Smith. And I'm sure they have a say in advertising. But I doubt they'd turn down any candidate's ad unless they had no space. Nenshi made a point of eschewing ads like that.
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