[News] Ottawa Senators to remove 1,500 Seats to increase Sellouts

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Toonage

Tuesday night game against an uninteresting opponent in an arena that's out of the way.

Not making excuses for past attendance issues, but this one sort of explains itself no?

Sure but 13.4k is extremely low for a Canadian team that was a win away from going to the Stanley Cup finals last season. I feel confident if the Flames got that far last season there would have been a lot of excitement opening up the season. What's happening in Ottawa is the exact opposite as people are staying away. This has to be quite concerning for the league when cities like Vancouver and Ottawa have attendance issues typical of non-traditional US hockey markets. Hard to imagine the salary cap is going to keep moving up when attendance is dropping in markets like this.

[Sainters7]

I'm sure this has been mentioned many times in the past, and I'm surely not looking to make excuses for them, I really could care less about the Sens either way. But it blows my mind how in the middle of nowhere their arena is. This is over a decade ago so I'm sure the surrounding area has grown since, but we drove past there on our way to Montreal, and it was pretty much literally in the middle of farmer's fields. It's basically the arena version of Edmonton' s airport, it's insane.

I didn't even think it was their rink at first it was so in the middle of nowhere away from the city itself, I thought that can't possibly be it. Can't imagine trying to go to like a Monday night game that goes to a shootout or something, and that commute back home on a weeknight, no thanks. Suburban pro sports venues suck, and Ottawa's rink is exhibit A on that argument.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by GullFoss

Hmmm interesting...

Almost like 25 years of ever higher prices reduced the affordability of games for families. So fewer familes at the games, and as a result, fewer kids. And now those kids who missed out on experiencing the NHL live have become adults have few emotional ties to the teams and thus feel little impetus to buy season tickets or game packs. And as a result, there's a lot of empty seats.

Almost like the NHL is kill the golden goose by trying to maximize short-term profits rather than long-term profits.

Yep, this nails it. Ottawa's struggles have always been there due to their arena location but now they're falling below even the norm. We're seeing the cracks before the crumble.

They sacrificed long term growth for short term revenue maximization, and we're starting to get to the end of the short term, imo.

[Toonage]

What is the actual capacity of that arena now with the 1500 seats removed? ESPN says they are averaging 15,000 fans through 3 home games (WSH, DET, VAN).
http://www.espn.com/nhl/attendance

[White Out 403]

When I was a kid I could get tickets to Jets games for 12 bucks from 7-11. Cheap seats?
Sure. But I could afford to go and often did with my whole family. Like, we all went. My parents and brother.

We'd park near the arena and probably spend, MAYBE 15 bucks between the 4 of us for concession. So my family would have a hockey game out for 65 bucks. The cheapest seat I see for the Flames is 36 bucks at the door, and that's the garbage of the garbage seats up in the press level. To take my family now (if my daughter was here and older we'll pretend) I'd have to spend $174 dollars for cheap seats and SOME concession treats for my kids, and maybe a pop for me and my wife.

That's unrealistic. I'll happily do it when the Jets are in town once or twice a year, but my kids simply won't grow up Flames fans or maybe even be as passionate as I was. Going to games live was/is special. It's a real treat to see it in person. Families have been priced out and owners are too dumb and greedy to otherwise give a ####.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by Toonage

What is the actual capacity of that arena now with the 1500 seats removed? ESPN says they are averaging 15,000 fans through 3 home games (WSH, DET, VAN).
http://www.espn.com/nhl/attendance

It was 20500, so now I guess it's around 19500. Although the 20500 included standing room.

So 13000 is about 7000 short of an old sell out and 6000 short of their new sellout.

[mikephoen]

Another factor has to be Ottawa's incredibly disciplined system. Their incredibly disciplined system is excellent at winning hockey games... but it's as boring as watching paint dry. Always increasing costs, plus boring product equals people staying at home.

[Teroy]

This is all about owner greed and excessive salaries. We used to have season tickets, sit in row 35 and pay less than it costs to attend a Junior game now days. Ridiculous!

[Erick Estrada]

The owners will always make their money as they should as these professional leagues wouldn't make a lot of sense if the owners couldn't at the very least break even or make a modest profit. However the players are making astronomically more than they did 20 years ago and the TV income for the NHL is extremely low compared to the other major sports so ticket sales are the main revenue source for the league which is the exact opposite of the NFL for example where TV revenue is larger than gate revenue. The salary cap has tapered off but someone has to pay for the $70+ million cost of the roster and that's fans. There was always going to be a tipping point where prices would exceed the disposable income of the average fan and it appears the league is very close to exceeding that if they haven't already.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

The owners will always make their money as they should as these professional leagues wouldn't make a lot of sense if the owners couldn't at the very least break even or make a modest profit. However the players are making astronomically more than they did 20 years ago and the TV income for the NHL is extremely low compared to the other major sports so ticket sales are the main revenue source for the league which is the exact opposite of the NFL for example where TV revenue is larger than gate revenue. The salary cap has tapered off but someone has to pay for the $70+ million cost of the roster and that's fans. There was always going to be a tipping point where prices would exceed the disposable income of the average fan and it appears the league is very close to exceeding that if they haven't already.

One of the things that gets touched on a lot, but rarely actually discussed, is the cost of concessions.

I hear people criticizing the greedy owners pretty much every single game for the ridiculous $10.25 beer and $5.75 popcorn.

But the simple fact of the matter is that they pretty much have to charge that. Because half of it goes to the players. In other words, CSEC is only really getting $5.13 for that beer, which is less than you can get one anywhere in town.

To be clear, I am not lamenting their situation - they negotiated it, and I have to pay the $10 regardless. I am just pointing out that - as you were saying - the whole system is ####ed and one big problem is HRR.

[squiggs96]

Originally Posted by Toonage

What is the actual capacity of that arena now with the 1500 seats removed? ESPN says they are averaging 15,000 fans through 3 home games (WSH, DET, VAN).
http://www.espn.com/nhl/attendance

Originally Posted by jayswin

It was 20500, so now I guess it's around 19500. Although the 20500 included standing room.

So 13000 is about 7000 short of an old sell out and 6000 short of their new sellout.

The attendance on the link shows 15,107 people per game and 78.9% of capacity.

15,107 / .789 = capacity of about 19,150

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

One of the things that gets touched on a lot, but rarely actually discussed, is the cost of concessions.

I hear people criticizing the greedy owners pretty much every single game for the ridiculous $10.25 beer and $5.75 popcorn.

But the simple fact of the matter is that they pretty much have to charge that. Because half of it goes to the players. In other words, CSEC is only really getting $5.13 for that beer, which is less than you can get one anywhere in town.

To be clear, I am not lamenting their situation - they negotiated it, and I have to pay the $10 regardless. I am just pointing out that - as you were saying - the whole system is ####ed and one big problem is HRR.

Half of net revenue right? So not half of $10.25. Half of the profit (which I imagine is considerable).

[morgin]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

One of the things that gets touched on a lot, but rarely actually discussed, is the cost of concessions.

I hear people criticizing the greedy owners pretty much every single game for the ridiculous $10.25 beer and $5.75 popcorn.

But the simple fact of the matter is that they pretty much have to charge that. Because half of it goes to the players. In other words, CSEC is only really getting $5.13 for that beer, which is less than you can get one anywhere in town.

To be clear, I am not lamenting their situation - they negotiated it, and I have to pay the $10 regardless. I am just pointing out that - as you were saying - the whole system is ####ed and one big problem is HRR.

I don't know one way or the other, but is that actually right? I would have thought the 50/50 split would be on the profits from concession, not overall revenue.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Half of net revenue right? So not half of $10.25. Half of the profit (which I imagine is considerable).

When we're talking draft beer and popcorn, those things wouldn't be very different. And the point is the same - if you have to give half your profit to someone else, the simple solution (to the extent you can get away with it) is to double the profit.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by morgin

I don't know one way or the other, but is that actually right? I would have thought the 50/50 split would be on the profits from concession, not overall revenue.

Yes, it is the profits, I typed that out too quickly.

Again, the point is the same though.

Edit: wait - is it the profits? Maybe it is the revenue - I can't remember now.

[corporatejay]

Anecdotal but a bunch of us are going grey cup this year and there's a saturday night game which we considered going to but the logistics of going out to Kanata were so brutal we are skipping it. They gotta get a downtown rink.

[Salt Water Cowboy #10]

This sounds like the Liberals had something to do with it. Justin?

[MisterJoji]

Originally Posted by mikephoen

Another factor has to be Ottawa's incredibly disciplined system. Their incredibly disciplined system is excellent at winning hockey games... but it's as boring as watching paint dry. Always increasing costs, plus boring product equals people staying at home.

It goes so far beyond Boucher’s system. That boring product pumped 12 goals in 2 games against the Alberta teams, has scored 4+ goals in 3/6 games, has lost once in regulation, and have one of the most exciting players in the league. The problem is terrible arena location and severely out pricing the average fan.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

When we're talking draft beer and popcorn, those things wouldn't be very different. And the point is the same - if you have to give half your profit to someone else, the simple solution (to the extent you can get away with it) is to double the profit.

These two things are not connected. As with anything else, the Flames will set beer prices to a price that they believe reaches the ideal point of the supply vs demand curve. If lower prices would sell enough beer to make more money, they'd do it. If higher prices meant less beer sold but higher gross revenue, they'd do that too.

Likewise, ticket prices. When demand is high, prices go up. Lower demand has the reverse effect. Of note in Ottawa, the majority of their upper bowl for tomorrow night's game vs the Devils is $40 or less with a pile of tickets - including entire rows - priced at $27. Troubling for Ottawa: even those aren't close to selling out. Looks like the Sens are royally taking advantage of Leaf fans on Saturday though. The same seats are listed at 3-4x as much. And that game is still nearly a sell-out.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

When we're talking draft beer and popcorn, those things wouldn't be very different. And the point is the same - if you have to give half your profit to someone else, the simple solution (to the extent you can get away with it) is to double the profit.

It must cost something to add the heroin though.