Confessions of a YYC Travel Junkie

[btimbit]

Yet the Australian airline they started seems to be doing great. Guess their fleet shortage problems will be sorted when Flair goes under, maybe Bonza can get some of their planes

I'm rooting for Flair so hard but I think it's pretty clear the ULCC model just doesn't work here.

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by cmyden

Just a summary of the rumors currently circulating around Flair...

- Their website hasn't been accepting any new bookings since Friday afternoon.

- The rumor is that their payment processor (People's Trust) broke ties with them and Flair is looking for a new payment processor.

(The mainstream media has been reporting this as 'IT issues')

- This afternoon Flair started directing traffic from their own website to third party sites for booking (Expedia, CheapoAir), a highly unprecendented thing for an airline to do.

- Some are calling this the straw that breaks the camel's back for Flair. Others point out that Flair seemingly goes through a backbreaking event every quarter and somehow finds a way to survive.

- 777 Partners, the hedge fund that has a 25% ownership stake in Flair, are currently involved with trying to acquire Everton in the Premier League (they've reportedly been selling assets to raise the money to do so). 777's CFO resigned last month.

AM Best recently downgraded 777's credit rating to C- (In November they were downgraded from A- to B)

Wild. Interesting that People's Trust wasn't willing to keep accepting cards for them and keep the cash until flights are delivered. Although maybe they did that and that's why Flair stopped using them.

Also - AM Best ratings are for insurance companies not hedge funds. I'm not familiar with 777, maybe they have an insurance subsidiary or something? Because AM Best doesn't rate hedge funds.

[chedder]

Originally Posted by btimbit

Yet the Australian airline they started seems to be doing great. Guess their fleet shortage problems will be sorted when Flair goes under, maybe Bonza can get some of their planes

I'm rooting for Flair so hard but I think it's pretty clear the ULCC model just doesn't work here.

Is it the model that won't work or the terrible customer service and cancellations that drive customers away? I tried flair once, had an awful experience that cost me an extra $1000 and three days of my life and I'll never fly with them again.

I'm heading to Toronto in a couple of weeks and flair was substantially less but I just have zero faith that I'll either get there or home without aggravation, extra cost and time so I'll happily pay an extra couple hundred to fly with anyone else.

[btimbit]

Originally Posted by chedder

Is it the model that won't work or the terrible customer service and cancellations that drive customers away? I tried flair once, had an awful experience that cost me an extra $1000 and three days of my life and I'll never fly with them again.

I'm heading to Toronto in a couple of weeks and flair was substantially less but I just have zero faith that I'll either get there or home without aggravation, extra cost and time so I'll happily pay an extra couple hundred to fly with anyone else.

Well others that try the model have no success either. Canada is simply too expensive to operate in to justify charging a 2 cent fare and only making money on extras

[cmyden]

Originally Posted by bizaro86

Also - AM Best ratings are for insurance companies not hedge funds. I'm not familiar with 777, maybe they have an insurance subsidiary or something? Because AM Best doesn't rate hedge funds.

Sorry, yes, the downgraded rating was for 777 Re, the reinsurance arm of 777 Partners.

https://www.semafor.com/article/11/2...s-buying-spree

Kenneth King, who runs a network of insurance and investment firms, has steered hundreds of millions of dollars for years to 777, whose bid for one of England’s oldest soccer teams has raised questions both among sports executives and regulators about where, exactly, its money comes from.

King’s firm, A-CAP, sold customers’ insurance policies to 777’s reinsurance arm, separately loaned at least $400 million to 777 Partners itself and various portfolio companies, and sits on the committee that oversees its investments, according to people familiar with the matter, and internal and public documents.

https://www.insurancebusinessmag.com...id-481236.aspx

Much speculation in the wake of 777 Partners’ Everton bid has centered on how insurance assets may have been used to fund loss-making investments. In its report, AM pointed to 777 Re having “materially significant exposure” to affiliated assets of 777 Partners and a “great deal of uncertainty” around the liquidity of these.

Among such alleged affiliated assets, as previously reported by Semafor: South American soccer streaming platform Fanatiz, a payday lender, *** a company that leases aircraft to 777 Partners-controlled budget airlines ***, and 777 Partners itself.

[cmyden]

This is becoming almost comical, but the government may need to step in here to limit the potential damage to consumers.

Flair is currently taking bookings by phone without payment, telling people someone will contact them in the next few days for payment.

At this point we may not be far off from just handing the pilot a $20 bill when you board.

UPDATE: Flair website seems to be taking bookings again.

[btimbit]

Originally Posted by cmyden

At this point we may not be far off from just handing the pilot a $20 bill when you board.

Don't forget to tip!

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by cmyden

This is becoming almost comical, but the government may need to step in here to limit the potential damage to consumers.

Flair is currently taking bookings by phone without payment, telling people someone will contact them in the next few days for payment.

At this point we may not be far off from just handing the pilot a $20 bill when you board.

UPDATE: Flair website seems to be taking bookings again.

The great thing about the credit card/payment processor model is that consumers are protected. If they can't find a bank to process cards for them they can't sell tickets. I don't think government intervention is necessary unless they start saying they're selling tickets via etransfer or something.

[butterfly]

Originally Posted by btimbit

Well others that try the model have no success either. Canada is simply too expensive to operate in to justify charging a 2 cent fare and only making money on extras

Wonder why. There is plenty of demand for it in UK/EU/US/ME/Asia/India.

UK tickets have very high taxes.

[D as in David]

Originally Posted by butterfly

Wonder why. There is plenty of demand for it in UK/EU/US/ME/Asia/India.

UK tickets have very high taxes.

Are you oblivious to the vast differences in population to all of those other destinations? Not to mention the densities of those populations vs. Canada.

[butterfly]

Originally Posted by D as in David

Are you oblivious to the vast differences in population to all of those other destinations? Not to mention the densities of those populations vs. Canada.

And yet you can get a flight to Canada from all of them? It's not as simple as population, you can downgauge the equipment and frequency in that case.

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by butterfly

Wonder why. There is plenty of demand for it in UK/EU/US/ME/Asia/India.

UK tickets have very high taxes.

Taxes and airport fees are very high here, and the distance between large population centres is also high. So all the costs are higher.

Still, with Lynx gone Flair's chances of survival go up. There definitely isn't room for more than one ULCC.

[D as in David]

Originally Posted by butterfly

And yet you can get a flight to Canada from all of them? It's not as simple as population, you can downgauge the equipment and frequency in that case.

Which is why I mentioned density. Less density implying a longer distance between population bases.

What does being able to get a full-service carrier flight to those destinations have to do with low-cost carrier viability in Canada?

[butterfly]

Originally Posted by D as in David

Which is why I mentioned density. Less density implying a longer distance between population bases.

What does being able to get a full-service carrier flight to those destinations have to do with low-cost carrier viability in Canada?

People who use ULCCs are extremely price conscious and leisure oriented. They aren't going from Toronto-Vancouver for work weekly or between any major Canadian population centers.

Hence EasyJet's and Ryanair's success in transporting people from the UK to beach destinations in the EU and Spirit's strength at LAS, MCO, FLL.

I don't see anything wrong with the model, they have always offered flights to US/MX/Caribbean leisure destinations from all the major Canadian cities and tried to tie in the usual hotels, if not 'all inclusive' stuff. It's strange how it doesn't seem to work when it does with similar ULCC routes in the other regions I mentioned.

[MoneyGuy]

Anyone have advice for a driving trip to SE Alberta (Badlands, Writing-On-Stone, Milk River, Cyprus Hills)? I asked the same for Waterton and we had a great trip.

Accommodations, must-see sites…that kind of thing. Looking at mid-May to late June or into September. I want to give Dr. Dale Leckie’s amazing book The Scenic Geology of Alberta another good workout.

[Sidney Crosby's Hat]

Speaking of ultra low cost carriers, has anyone flown ZipAir from Vancouver to Tokyo? Their prices seem really reasonable (you can find flights there if you look far enough out for around $700 or about double that for lie flat which is really crazy).

[cmyden]

Originally Posted by Sidney Crosby's Hat

Speaking of ultra low cost carriers, has anyone flown ZipAir from Vancouver to Tokyo? Their prices seem really reasonable (you can find flights there if you look far enough out for around $700 or about double that for lie flat which is really crazy).

I haven't flown with them (they just recently started flying out of Vancouver) but posted some info here about what to expect: https://yvrdeals.com/vancouver-to-to...-673-roundtrip

ZipAir aims to offer flights to Japan that are significantly cheaper than their competitors (Air Canada, ANA, and Japan Airlines here in Vancouver). They often claim they are 50% cheaper.

(Note: ZipAir is actually owned by Japan Airlines).

However, ZipAir does not include *anything* in their base fares, other than a small piece of hand luggage. Seat selection, actual carry-on, checked bags, and even meals are all extra.


- If you want to quickly compare ZipAir against their competitors, add about $220 CAD roundtrip to their cheapest prices. This is the typical cost of their 'value' package which brings things back to 'expected' (carry-on, seat selection, in-flight meals, and a checked bag.).

So a $700 flight is really around $920 when comparing against, say, Air Canada.

Zipair also offers something called 'Full Flat'' class with lie-flat seats that are significantly cheaper than Business Class fares offered by competitors.

But again, this Full Flat class is stripped down to it's bare minimum. Full Flat is essentially Economy with a better seat. That's all you get.

You still need to pay extra for things that would normally be included on a typical Business Class flight (bags, seat selection, and inflight meals).

Priority check-in, baggage handling or boarding, and lounge access are also not included.


Also note that in Full Flat there are no built in screens. You bring your own device and stream entertainment wirelessly.

All that being said, Full Flat can still be a pretty great deal relative to typical business class fares.

Full Flat is generally around 2X economy price, so let's say $1800-$2200 CAD roundtrip.

Compare that to a typical Business class flight from YVR to Tokyo, which is about $4000-$5000 roundtrip.

[Sidney Crosby's Hat]

Originally Posted by cmyden

I haven't flown with them (they just recently started flying out of Vancouver) but posted some info here about what to expect: https://yvrdeals.com/vancouver-to-to...-673-roundtrip

Thanks for that info! One thing that intrigues me about ZipAir is that you can book a one-way flight for approximately half the cost of a round trip which is rare for overseas (usually one-way is more expensive for some reason). The reason this is key is that if I only had, say, 70,000 Alaska miles, I could book one way on Japan Airlines via Alaska and book the other way on ZipAir, whichever direction is cheapest.

[cmyden]

Originally Posted by Sidney Crosby's Hat

Thanks for that info! One thing that intrigues me about ZipAir is that you can book a one-way flight for approximately half the cost of a round trip which is rare for overseas (usually one-way is more expensive for some reason). The reason this is key is that if I only had, say, 70,000 Alaska miles, I could book one way on Japan Airlines via Alaska and book the other way on ZipAir, whichever direction is cheapest.

Yes, WestJet also does that with their overseas flights to Europe, and to Seoul and Tokyo. (With WestJet, it's not quite to the same degree as ZipAir, where every flight is about 50% of the one way price).

One way to Tokyo: https://www.google.ca/travel/flights...C&tfu=EgIIASIA
^^ mid $500s in September, October, November

One way to Seoul: https://www.google.ca/travel/flights...g&tfu=EgIIASIA
^^ mid $500s in August, September, October

Contrast that with other carriers like Air Canada, where a one way to Tokyo or Seoul is $1200-$1500+ on *every* date in the calendar.

Incidentally, someone asked about experiences with ZipAir this morning in the YVR Deals Facebook Group, here are the replies so far:

Flew into Japan on Zip air on March 18 and was pleasantly surprised with the roominess in the seats and how clean it was. Staff on board were friendly and helpful.

Be sure to bring your own flight entertainment, there are no screens, so if you’d like to watch a movie or tv show, download it into your device. Wifi didn’t work for me, only to order drinks and food.

Would bring own snacks and food unless you want to buy food onboard during the flight.

Would fly with zip air again!

Flew on their inaugural flight from YVR to NRT, and just got back to YVR after a 2 week trip. Everything went smoothly! Would happily fly with them again in the future.

Inflight wi-fi was spotty, don't count on it

Couldnt believe how clean the plane was. Flying back to YVR saturday the 30th.

[Ironhorse]

WestJet just did an equipment substitution in PVR. Going from a 787 to a 737-800. Chaos currently in progress.