Calgarypuck Forums - The Unofficial Calgary Flames Fan Community

Go Back   Calgarypuck Forums - The Unofficial Calgary Flames Fan Community > Main Forums > The Off Topic Forum
Register Forum Rules FAQ Community Calendar Today's Posts Search

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 11-04-2020, 10:49 AM   #101
CaptainCrunch
Norm!
 
CaptainCrunch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Exp:
Default

I can, its a good and interesting idea, we can even do one that talks about America trying to counter the zero with no developments. I do want to do Cannae this weekend though
__________________
My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings;

Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair!
CaptainCrunch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-06-2020, 12:15 PM   #102
CaptainCrunch
Norm!
 
CaptainCrunch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Exp:
Default

So this weekend is definately going to look at the Battle of Cannae.


Next weekend after watching a documentary on the Zero, F6F Hellcat and the Corsair, America's reaction to Japanese naval aviation dominance.
__________________
My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings;

Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair!
CaptainCrunch is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to CaptainCrunch For This Useful Post:
Old 11-08-2020, 02:17 PM   #103
CaptainCrunch
Norm!
 
CaptainCrunch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Exp:
Default

Battle of Cannae – August 2, 216 BC

Battles are rarely fair. By design a successful General will understand his enemy and use their tactics against them. Hannibal was one of the most successful Generals in history not because he was hyper aggressive, not because he had a technical or training edge or a super weapon. Hannibal had none of these things, instead Hannibal who was greatly outnumbered, used Roman tactics against his enemy and destroyed them completely, ruthlessly, and utterly.

Precursor

Rome and Carthage were long time enemies, fighting multiple times in the Punic wars. In the second Second Punic War, Carthage was eyeing Spain and Sicily to expand its city empire. In order to do this, Carthage needed to take the initiative against the Romans and invade their territory in what could be described as a war of intimidation.

The Second Punic War saw an invasion of Italy by Hannibal in an amazing feat in terms of road marches as Hannibal lead his army through the Pyrenees and the Alps. He quickly crushed the Romans at Trebia and Lake Trasimemne, before encamping near the village of Cannae a very short distance from the capital.

The Roman’s responded by trying to avoid major battles and to attempt to starve out Hannibal by cutting his supply lines. However, the Roman’s were always known for aggressive and attack based battles so this was unpopular in Rome. The Roman’s were also were frightened of Hannibal plundering Italy unopposed as it might lead some of Rome’s close allies to side with Hannibal or get crushed.

This led to Fabius the Dictator responsible for this strategy being basically fired. Varro and Paullus were selected to lead a massive army as co-leaders.

Leaders

Gaius Terentius Varro
Was a politician and Roman General during the Second Punic War, he was in command of the Roman army on the day of Cannae. Considered the more cautious of the two commanders.

Lucius Aemilius Paullus
Was named a two-time Roman Council first in the Illyrian war and then again in the Second Punic War in which he shared command of the Roman Army with Gaius Terentius Varro. Paullus was the more aggressive to the two commanders he was not the overall commander during Cannae

Hannibal
Was the son of Hamilcar Barca, a Carthaginian leader who commanded during the loss to Rome in the First Punic War. Hamilcar encouraged his son’s hatred of Rome. Hannibal was encouraged by his father to hate the Roman Empire and made to swear that he would never be a friend to Rome. Hannibal went on to fight in many battles and eventually rose to command Carthage’s massive invasion army.



The Armies

Romans

Rome at that time usually employed 4 legions at a time. A Legion was a heavy infantry unit supported by calvary. In this case the average Legion was usually about 5000 men, this was comprised of 4200 infantry and about 300 or more cavalry units.

The infantry was armed with a Javelin or throwing spear, the Gladius or short sword designed for stabbing more then slashing, and a heavy Scutum, or a large shield designed to push back the enemy and allow the average soldier to stab from protection. The Roman’s also received protection from their personal armor and helmet.

The Roman Cavalry was armed with a lance and usually carried a Spatha which was a longer sword designed for slashing as well as stabbing.
For the march on Hannibal, Rome had assembled 8 Legions comprised of about 80,000 Infantry and 6,400 cavalry.

Carthage

Hannibal’s army was made up of different allies drawn from France, modern day Germany and africa. The Carthaginian army was estimated to be made up of 50,000 men of mixed units, including infantry from Libya, the excellent Gaul infantry, and various different tribesmen. He had 40,000 infantry men. Roughly 10,000 cavalry that were lighter and faster than the Roman heavy cavalry, and 6000 javelin men who were key to this battle.

Rome badly outnumbered the Carthaginians 80,000 to about 50,000. The Roman’s had an edge in terms of personal kit; however Hannibal was the superior tactician and knew the Romans and their tactics.

Initial deployment



The Roman’s placed their infantry in the center of their scrimmage line with their Cavalry on the wings to protect the Roman flanks and provide speed and mobility. Varro who was in command that day, decided that he wanted to attack the center of Hannibal’s army and because of that he massed his infantry units based on depth more then width and compressed his infantry into a wedge. Its interesting to note that Roman infantry formations in a legion were broken into three rows. The first row was comprised of the raw recruits, the second row comprised of battle-hardened troops and the final row was comprised of experienced veterans. The logical thought being that the Veterans might have been slower, but their experience would allow them to be a powerful and efficient reserve. The idea behind Varro’s decision, was to sunder the middle of Hannibal’s line and pour reenforcments into the rear to savage Hannibal’s reserves and logistics.

Hannibal on the other hand deployed his forces based on the strength of units in a crescent shaped formation. The Gaul’s his best infantry were in the center formation. To bait the trap he put himself front and center in front of the Romans. Meanwhile, he placed his battle-hardened Punic Infantry at the edges of his line. Hannibal then placed his light cavalry on the flanks, and kept his javelin men in reserve.

The Battle Joined

Keep in mind that Hannibal had created the perfect trap and in the span of 4 hours would use Varro’s caution and reliance on text book tactics against him. As the Roman’s advanced they compressed to attack the middle of Hannibal’s battle line, while Hannibal extended the center of his line. Thus, when the Roman’s attacked at the center, we need to think of it like a huge pressure plate attached to the hinged flanks. The Roman’s saw some early success pushing back the Gaul Infantry Units, but the trap was sprung as the outer flanks began to look like a crescent facing the Romans.



Varro’s mistake of compressing his formations was about to blow up in his face as Hannibal’s cavalry swept in on the flanks engulfing the Roman’s formation including the Roman cavalry. The Hispanic and Celtic Horsemen of Hannibal’s army then dismounted due to a lack of maneuver room and engaged in a brutal battle as they pushed the Roman’s towards the center. On the other flank Hannibal’s cavalry occupied the Roman Cavalry designed to protect Varro’s flank and pushed them towards the center.

The Roman’s were trapped in the center facing infantry on all sides. To illustrated how desperate the situation was for the Romans, think of taking 80,000 Roman’s and putting them in a room designed to hold half that number. The center of the Roman army was crushed in and paralyzed and could not effectively fight.

The Roman’s were trapped, but they still had an avenue of escape, but Hannibal was about to finish his encirclement. Hannibal ordered the slow retreat of the center of his infantry lines, thus drawing the Roman’s deeper into the sack and then slammed the door shut. His African Infantry including the Javelin men who had been held in reserve moved into the rear of the Roman army thus slamming the circle shut, this was one of the earliest uses of the Pincer movement.

With the Carthaginian cavalry attacking the Romans in the rear and Hannibal’s infantry attacking from the left and the right, the Roman advance to the middle stopped, and Hannibal ordered a counter attack to the middle.

What followed was a massacre of the Roman’s in the middle as all sides of the Carthaginian army advanced. The Roman’s on the outer ranks were mowed down and the Roman’s retreated to the middle and were slaughtered.

Out of 80,000 Romans only 14,000 managed to fight their way out of the trap. Paullius was caught in the middle was wounded and refused to leave. Instead he calmly sat on a rock to await his fate and was slaughtered.



Varro managed to escape and make his way back to Rome, Stunningly he was welcomed back as a hero of the people and thanked for not killing himself, he was then appointed a new army command in the field.

In the end, the Roman’s lost their whole army with a loss of 70,000 infantry killed and 10,000 taken captive with maybe 3,000 surviving. Out of their 6000 cavalry, only a handful made it out alive.

While it was one of the greatest victories in military history, Hannibal paid a steep bill. He lost 8000 of his men and his army was gutted.

Repercussions

When word got back to Rome, it created widespread panic. Their army had been destroyed piecemeal in the field and the loss of moral was massive.

The expectation was that Hannibal would descend on Rome and lay siege to the Capital ending the Roman Empire. In their panic the Roman’s turned to their gods and resorted to human sacrifice. The Romans had seen the loss of their young men in great numbers and it would take years to recover.

But the attack on Rome never came. While Hannibal was urged to march on Rome, he had seen a huge loss to his army, and without the chance of resupply and the difficulty in replacing his losses he didn’t see the ability lay a long siege on Rome. instead Hannibal sent a delegate to Rome to discuss moderate terms with the Roman Senate and was rebuffed. Hannibal then went on a Rampage through the Italian country side for the next 14 years, before being recalled home to defend Carthage.

The Roman’s took the opportunity to reform their army, they banned the word Peace from their language and went back to hit and fade tactics against Hannibal. Tactics wise, the Roman army changed they went to smaller and more mobile formations, The Roman army also changed its command structure and updated the use of cavalry and mobility warfare as well as investing in barrage weapons.

The Roman’s also had to rebuild their depleted ranks and opened their ranks allowing even younger men, criminals and slaves to be conscripted into their ranks. Because of this softening of requirements Rome was quickly able to rebuild its strength.

The Roman empire rebounded and eventually defeated Carthage, first reducing it to a client state of the Roman Empire, then in the Third Punic War pretty much destroying it.

Hannibal was forced into exile after the Roman’s accused him of conspiring with Rome’s enemies to overthrow the Imperial rule of Carthage. He fled the Roman assassins and eventually poisoned himself.

Conclusions

Hannibal has to be considered to be one of the greatest generals of all times, and one of the fathers of mobility-based combat. He was the rare combination of brilliant tactician and charismatic leader. These traits allowed him to not only recruit an army of multinationals but to use them effectively based on the strength and weaknesses of these different units and cultures

Tactically he was brilliant, he understood what Varro intended to do and created a trap based on Roman tactics.

Hannibal’s unwillingness to march on Rome will always be debated because he had the Roman’s on the ground and refused to cut out their heart. He was in fact in a similar situation as the Japanese at the start of WW2 where they realized that they would eventually lose to the Americans and did not have the strength to push their advantage. In his heart Hannibal knew that he could not strike the death blow and was effectively trapped into a course of defeat.

While the Roman’s went through perils in the past, the defeat at Cannae seemed to signal the decline and eventual defeat of the Roman Empire. That did not happen as Rome was given the time to rebuild and reform and eventually destroy Carthage.


__________________
My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings;

Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair!

Last edited by CaptainCrunch; 11-08-2020 at 02:24 PM.
CaptainCrunch is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 12 Users Say Thank You to CaptainCrunch For This Useful Post:
Old 11-15-2020, 12:30 PM   #104
CaptainCrunch
Norm!
 
CaptainCrunch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Exp:
Default

Ok, I'm going to delay my paper on the zero, I'll probably release it on Monday or Tuesday as I continue to research it, the F6F and the Corsair fighters and tactics.
__________________
My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings;

Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair!
CaptainCrunch is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to CaptainCrunch For This Useful Post:
Old 11-15-2020, 01:01 PM   #105
btimbit
Franchise Player
 
btimbit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: SW Calgary
Exp:
Default

That'll be a good one, looking forward to it.

Fighters and especially carrier fighters in the pacific is something I don't know much about
btimbit is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to btimbit For This Useful Post:
Old 11-16-2020, 01:56 PM   #106
CaptainCrunch
Norm!
 
CaptainCrunch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Exp:
Default

Japanese Mitsubishi Zero A6M
Air Dominance

When we look back on the Pacific War, there is no greater an expression of the Japanese Military Culture then the infamous Zero. Designed at the start of the war to replace the A5M, it went on to a brief career of unprecedented dominance that will never be matched. Unfortunately, the Zero is also a cautionary tale, a prime example of evolve or die.

The Beginning

In the late 1930’s the Mitsubishi A5M “Claude” was the primary carrier based fighter in the Japanese inventory, a lightly armed but well protected fighter with excellent maneuverability and decent top end speed, it was a robust successful fighter that did exceptionally well in the Sino-Japanese War.

However, as the Japanese were drawn into the inevitable war against the Americans which was to in their minds be build around carrier tactics, the Japanese Military Command decided to look to replace it with a generational aircraft.

With a demand for fighter with a top speed of greater then 500 km/h, a fast climb rate and above average endurance. The Imperial Japanese Navy also wanted a plane with heavier fire power and the ability to carry bombs.

Only one company came forward to build this plane, and that was Mitsubishi. Designed by Jiro Horikoshi, he realized that the only way to meet the requirements of the Navy was to build a extremely lightweight plane.

To achieve the weight constraints, Horikoshi built the plane out of an experimental light weight aluminum alloy, and every single pilot safety feature was removed. There would be no armor in the Zero, and the fuel tanks would not contain a self-sealing feature. There were also problems around the aluminum frame which became brittle in the cold and tended corrode quickly. There would also be no hydraulic control systems for the rudders and ailerons which were cable driven and difficult to use.

In exchange for the removal of these safety systems, the Japanese created a revolutionary aircraft. Driven by a lightweight 14 cyclinder air cooled radial piston engine with 940 hp, the Zero’s top speed was a fairly sporty 533 km/h, it could climb at 15.7 m/s, and because of the extremely low stalling speed could outturn anything in the air at the time.

It featured a pretty heavy Sunday punch based around 2 20 mm cannons and 2 7.7 mm machine guns. It could either carry two light 130 pound bombs and a center mounted fuel tank, or in later years one 550 lb bomb for kamikaze missions.



Entering the War

The Japanese Zero reached operational status in 1940 and got involved in the war against China where it showed its incredible dominance. In its first year the Zero was responsible for more then 100 Chinese Aircraft.

However production was fairly slow, as the Japanese moved across the Pacific Ocean and approached Pearl Harbor the Japanese had only managed to build about 500 Zero’s, though by the end of the war they had produced around 10,000 of different variances.

Pearl Harbor showed the absolute benefits and dominance of the Zero. First and foremost because of its long range, it could be launched farther away from the American Airbase, in its first engagement with American Fighters it was shown to be far more maneuverable then the heavier American Fighters. At its height in the Pacific War the Zero had a 12-1 one kill ratio.

Considered to be far superior to the American F4F Wildcats and slightly superior to the British Submarine Spitfire, it was a fighter that rewarded an experienced and aggressive pilot, though it was unforgiving to a tentative or inexperienced pilot which the Japanese would learn latter in the War.

Opponent 1 The Grumman F4F Wildcat



The primary American Naval Fighter at the start of the Pacific War. Designed to be a rugged plane that could exchange fire with enemy planes, it was woefully outperformed by the Zero. With a slower top speed at about 512 km/h, the Wildcat couldn’t turn with the zero nor outclimb it. It was also seriously outgunned and outranged by its Japanese opponents.

The Tactical Change

There were two problems with the American Naval Aircraft. First and foremost, the Wildcat was universally hated by its pilot, it could not maneuver with the Zero. The other problems was with initial tactics. American pilots had trained to fight extremely technical pilots from Germany and Italy. Unfortunately, the Japanese were far more aggressive and were prone to take a lot more risks with heir plane. On top of that the Japanese pilots knew that they had a massive advantage over the American pilots and were willing to engage in a turn-based battle.

After seeing dominance by the Zero at Pearl Harbor and Midway (The Japanese lost the battle but the Zero carried the air war). The American’s changed tactics at Guadalcanal. Using altitude, the American’s would climb to their maximum ceiling and dive on the Zero’s, this had two key advantages. It increased the speed of the Wildcat, and it allowed them to attack the Zero’s from their blind spot which denied the Japanese pilots their maneuvering advantage. They would literally attempt to rip through Japanese formations. Upon completion of their attack run, the F4F would climb back up to altitude and then dive back down on their opponents again. This attack was made even more effective through the use of American early warning radars which allowed the American’s to effectively ambush their opponents. This maneuver became known as the Boom and Zoom.



However, at Midway the American’s introduced a tactic that is still in use today.

Jimmy Thach and the Weave

John “Jimmy” Thach was unique in the fighter community. An excellent tactical pilot, he was also extremely cerebral. While most fighter pilots would unwind at the bar, Thach would unwind by creating tactics at home. Realizing that the Japanese had a vast advantage in aircraft and their tactics were extremely aggressive, he worked on a way to turn those advantages against each other, and came up with the cooperative Weave. Based around a two plane formation flying around 60 meters apart, the Americans would invite a attack from the rear. Once they had a Zero on the tail of one of the planes, the two American’s would turn in towards each other in a weave, dragging the Zero into the gun sights of an American fighter. If the first attack failed the planes would pass and then weave back towards each other. The Japanese pilots who were taught to press the advantage when they had a tail attack were victimized by this tactic as they had two choices. Press the attack, or break off and circle, which became impossible as the Americans could then turn inside on the circle. The Weave is used to this day and is one of the most effective cooperative fighter tactics in history.



Problems surface

The Japanese Navy had two problems. As the war dragged on they were losing their best and more experienced pilots, and that loss would get worse as the war continued and the Americans bought in new planes designed to be Zero Killers. As I stated earlier the Zero is a pilots dream, but a nightmare to inexperienced pilots.

The other problem was that the Zero never evolved. Later Zero’s would have bigger heavier engines that would increase straight ahead speed, but the extra weight effected its stall speed and turning ability, two things that were crucial to the Zero’s success. The other issue was that the controls weren’t great compared to the later aircraft of the war, so a Pilot in an American Aircraft gained a maneuvering advantage.

The biggest problem was America’s industrial base, something that Admiral Yamamoto warned the government about. Once America got into the war, they could out design, outproduce and get fighters into the war quicker. Japan because of its failure to design a successor to the Zero was in severe trouble.

Opponent 2 Grumman F6F Hellcat



Designed around intelligence gathered by captured Zero’s the F6F was designed to effectively counter the Zero. Considered to be one of the greatest naval fighters ever created, the F6F was a beast. Heavily armored and built around a massive 18 cylinder air cooled radial piston engine with 2,200 hp. The Hellcat had a huge speed advantage over the zero (629 KM/H vs 533 KM/H) it had a fairly equivalent climbing rate. While the Zero could still out turn the Hellcat at low speeds, the Hellcat could outturn the zero at its top speed. It was also extremely well armored and armed. It could effectively use the Boom and Zoom and the Weave, could stick with a Zero on climbs and dives and could survive a running gun battle. The Hellcat was so effective that at Tarawa they killed 30 Zero’s to 1 Hellcat, and in the Philippines the Hellcat was one of the great reasons for the Great Marianas Turkey Shoot. By the end of the War the Hellcat had accounted for 75% of American aerial victories.

Opponent 3 Vought F4U Corsair



A late entry into the war, the F4U was a generational leap forward as a Fighter Bomber. While Zero Pilots were scared of the Hellcat, they were terrified of the Corsair. Used as both a carrier based and land based fighter flown by the Navy and Marine Corp. Featuring a unique bent wing structure, and one of the largest engines mounted on a plane in World War 2, it featured a top speed of 718 km/h, a massive climb rate advantage and a extreme service ceiling. It was heavily gunned featuring either 6 machine guns or 4 20 mm canons and could act as a bomber with either rockets or 4000 pounds in bombs. The Zero couldn’t maneuver with the Corsair at high speed or outclimb it, and by 1944 when the Corsair was released the American’s had a significant pilot advantage.

Opponent 4 – Lockheed P38 Lightning

While it entered the war in 1942, it took a while for the lightning to make its mark in the Pacific in the same way that it made its mark in Europe. Called two planes one pilot by the Japanese it was a unique design using two 1600 Horsepower engines. It had a extremely high ceiling with a extremely fast rate of climb and could beat the Zero because of its use of Energy Tactics which would be to draw a Zero into a climbing circle and then use its superior energy to turn inside. Armed with a 20 mm cannon and 4 machine guns, it would utilize the Boom and Zoom tactics of the F4F Wildcat to great effect.

The End of the Zero

With the Americans’ building better fighters in greater numbers and the Japanese losses adding up in terms of experienced numbers. The IJN was losing carriers and was being forced back to the home Island. As America started disrupting Japanese production, the Zero began to disappear from the skies. As the American navy began to close the noose on the Japanese mainland's and the American bombing campaign under Curtis LeMay began to intensify, it was noted that it was rare to see Zero’s defending the home Islands. Instead they were being used in a more nefarious way. The Zero became the primary kamikaze platform near the end of the war. Fixed with a large 2000 pound bomb on its center point the Japanese didn’t need the range provided by drop tanks as their trips were one way. The Zero’s became the worlds first example of a cruise missile. Re-enter Jimmy Thach who was the bane of the Zeros. Thach developed the Big Blue Blanket, which introduced the use of radar mounted picket ships which would detect incoming Japanese Aircraft and inform American combat air patrols vectoring them in on the Japanese Kamikaze’s far from the fleet.



Conclusion

It could be argued that the Zero in the end was a failed design that went well past its short service life. But it would be a dishonest argument. At the start of the War through to 1942 the Zero’s owned the sky with a 12-1 advantage. The problem was that like the Japanese victory at Midway, Victory fever destroyed the Zero. It was so dominant, that the Japanese felt that they could hold its advantage until the American’s surrendered, instead American resolve hardened and American engineering and industrial might leapt naval aviation forward by several generations. The Zero was left behind.

If anything the Zero and its pilots were a reflection of the Bushido code which the Japanese Military distorted to the point where self sacrifice for honor and victor defined the type of aircraft that was designed. Fast, light, simple, with no pilot saving features at all, the Japanese paid the price in lost pilots and planes.

In a fight between the different military philosophies of the United States and Japan, the American reliance on pilot protection, and power won over agility and speed.
__________________
My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings;

Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair!

Last edited by CaptainCrunch; 11-16-2020 at 02:26 PM.
CaptainCrunch is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 9 Users Say Thank You to CaptainCrunch For This Useful Post:
Old 11-16-2020, 03:40 PM   #107
edslunch
Franchise Player
 
edslunch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Exp:
Default

Another great write up Captain!

If you’re looking for other contributors I was obsessed with the Desert War in WW2 and might be able to put something together.
edslunch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2020, 04:01 PM   #108
CaptainCrunch
Norm!
 
CaptainCrunch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Exp:
Default

I welcome contributors man, this thread is for everyone.



The Desert War in WW2 was an amazing showdown between one of the greatest tank generals of all time, and Monty.


I would love to see something to that effect.


I'm trying to figure out my next one, I think I'm going back to a battle, I was thinking of something from the Civil War, but I'm not sure


Suggestions anyone?
__________________
My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings;

Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair!
CaptainCrunch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2020, 08:16 PM   #109
edslunch
Franchise Player
 
edslunch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Exp:
Default

I have a different opinion of Monty, but the back and forth of that whole campaign is fascinating
edslunch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2020, 08:23 PM   #110
peter12
Franchise Player
 
peter12's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Exp:
Default

Monty is overrated, in my opinion. Just finished a book about the Canadians in the Reichswald. I might put up a post later this week.
peter12 is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to peter12 For This Useful Post:
Old 11-16-2020, 10:50 PM   #111
CroFlames
Franchise Player
 
CroFlames's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch View Post
I welcome contributors man, this thread is for everyone.



The Desert War in WW2 was an amazing showdown between one of the greatest tank generals of all time, and Monty.


I would love to see something to that effect.


I'm trying to figure out my next one, I think I'm going back to a battle, I was thinking of something from the Civil War, but I'm not sure


Suggestions anyone?

May I suggest the battle of Stalingrad, or if that’s too narrow maybe Stalingrad, Moscow and Leningrad?
CroFlames is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2020, 11:09 PM   #112
peter12
Franchise Player
 
peter12's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Exp:
Default

I should say Monty was overrated, but so is almost every single American or German general we hear about.

The worst thing about Monty was his overweening concern for his own reputation, and his unfair treatment of subordinates not seen to be in his inner circle. Crerar being the most important one for us Canucks.
peter12 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2020, 11:11 PM   #113
FlamesAddiction
Franchise Player
 
FlamesAddiction's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Vancouver
Exp:
Default

The 1683 Siege and Battle of Vienna is a good one. So much trickery, back and forth momentum, and crappy alliances.
__________________
"A pessimist thinks things can't get any worse. An optimist knows they can."

Last edited by FlamesAddiction; 11-16-2020 at 11:13 PM.
FlamesAddiction is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to FlamesAddiction For This Useful Post:
Old 11-16-2020, 11:17 PM   #114
peter12
Franchise Player
 
peter12's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction View Post
The 1683 Siege and Battle of Vienna is a good one. So much trickery, back and forth momentum, and crappy alliances.
I love how history turned that battle into a turning point for Christianity and the political boundaries of Europe, and it was, but at the time, it was also really about who needed to get paid.
peter12 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2020, 11:51 PM   #115
FlamesAddiction
Franchise Player
 
FlamesAddiction's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Vancouver
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by peter12 View Post
I love how history turned that battle into a turning point for Christianity and the political boundaries of Europe, and it was, but at the time, it was also really about who needed to get paid.
Yeah, I hate how the religious angle gets glorified.

The French were harassing the Hapsburg's and cheered the Ottomans on at first. Protestant revolutionaries fought for the Ottomans. The Venetians were supporting the Ottomans as well. The Polish-Lithuanians supported Austria, but practically made them beg for it and showed up late just to make a point.

Then when the Ottomans were defeated, it became "Yay for Christians!".
__________________
"A pessimist thinks things can't get any worse. An optimist knows they can."
FlamesAddiction is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-17-2020, 12:19 AM   #116
CaptainCrunch
Norm!
 
CaptainCrunch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CroFlames View Post
May I suggest the battle of Stalingrad, or if that’s too narrow maybe Stalingrad, Moscow and Leningrad?
Thanks for the ideas, discussions and feedback guys. I do really enjoy doing these, and hope that you guys are getting some enjoyment out of them.

I do like the idea of doing the battle of Stalingrad, there are a lot of aspects to it that could make for a really interesting breakdown.

The political wills behind this in terms of Stalin and Hitler is a paper on itself. It was one of the great tactical blunders of the war and it came down to not only Hitler and his ego, but his own generals being terrified of reporting the truth to him, or trying to talk him out of stupid things.

On top of it, the Battle of Stalingrad does feature one of my top ranked Generals of WW2 in Georgy Zhukov a true Mustang who rose from non commissioned conscript to Marshal who gained command of the Kiev Military district and then became the Soviet Defense Minister. Stubborn and aggressive and uncompromising, he managed to survive his relationship with Stalin and was the man who arrested and condemned Beria. He was the perfect General for the desparate situation that the Soviet Army was in after the German Invasion.

I could almost do a write up on him alone. But I love the idea of doing Stalingrad. I could probably cheat, as I wrote a paper on it in college that I probably still have, but I was a better writer and researcher back then.

You know what. I think for a change of pace, I'm going to do a write up on Zhukov and start adding biographies to this thread. Then at some point I'll do Stalingrad.

I love some of the other ideas here as well, though I don't think I'm all that strong on some of the subjects suggested, but I can take a swing at it.
__________________
My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings;

Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair!
CaptainCrunch is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to CaptainCrunch For This Useful Post:
Old 11-17-2020, 08:23 AM   #117
CroFlames
Franchise Player
 
CroFlames's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Exp:
Default

I get enjoyment out of them. I read them before bed then I go down Wikipedia rabbit holes researching points you made.

Hopefully some other guys contribute too for more content.
CroFlames is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to CroFlames For This Useful Post:
Old 11-17-2020, 08:28 AM   #118
MoneyGuy
Franchise Player
 
MoneyGuy's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Exp:
Default

Anyone have an opinion on which side was right in the Falklands Island war. Just watched the episode in the Crown that dealt with it but it presented a biased perspective.
MoneyGuy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-17-2020, 08:57 AM   #119
CaptainCrunch
Norm!
 
CaptainCrunch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Exp:
Default

I've always stood on the side of the British in that conflict, though they were trying to negotiate the Islands to the Argentinians to resolve the dispute and open up trade in South America, the Citizens on the Island considered themselves to be British citizens and wanted the protection of the Crown. I don't think we can argue that the Argentine government at the time was foolish in invading the Island and effectively taking on a first world advanced and well trained Military. Once the British mobilized, they had won the war.
__________________
My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings;

Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair!
CaptainCrunch is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to CaptainCrunch For This Useful Post:
Old 11-17-2020, 09:02 AM   #120
CaptainCrunch
Norm!
 
CaptainCrunch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CroFlames View Post
I get enjoyment out of them. I read them before bed then I go down Wikipedia rabbit holes researching points you made.

Hopefully some other guys contribute too for more content.

Thanks that kind of feedback means a lot to me, I mean I love the research and writing side of things, but its nice to be able to share and hopefully get some debate or discussion.


I first decided to do this for a couple of reasons. I need to do something to exercise my brain besides work.



Second my nephew is a university student taking history and he wants to be a teacher and he asked me to review his work, and I didn't think it was all that great, both in terms of research and second because there was really a shortage of analysis. Why people made the decisions they made based around the information they had at the time? What was the global effect of small details?


So, I've been compiling these and sending them to him, and offering to have discussions with him on history if he wants to.


I think that military history is so crucial as a subject, and I'm saddened that there is less and less emphasis put on it as we go along.
__________________
My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings;

Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair!
CaptainCrunch is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:14 AM.

Calgary Flames
2023-24




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright Calgarypuck 2021