What is Brodie’s worth?

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by Tron_fdc

Again, read what I wrote.

Brodie +

If Brodie is hypothetically worth a 1st rounder, what is Brodie and Monahan worth?

I assume, quite reasonably, that Brodie was the headliner of your package, otherwise you should have posted Monahan +.

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by Bonded

I just don't know who that #1 C is that we get would with Monahan and Brodie as a package, maybe, Couturier.



Do you think Couturier gets us a cup?

Couturier isn't getting traded for anything other than massive, massive overpay. he's their best player, and he's offensively and defensively gifted. He's currently at Bergeron/Toews level.

Philly doesn't need Brodie, they have lots of young offensively gifted d-men.

You want a center man from Philly, you need to gamble on Nolan Patrick.

[Bonded]

Originally Posted by The Cobra

Couturier isn't getting drafted for anything other than massive, massive overpay. he's their best player, and he's offensively and defensively gifted. He's currently at Bergeron/Toews level.

Philly doesn't need Brodie, they have lots of young offensively gifted d-men.

You want a center man from Philly, you need to gamble on Nolan Patrick.

Oh I agree, that is why I don't think it makes sense to trade Monahan. The cost to upgrade on him will be massive and probably hurt the Flames more in the long run unless we go old or a GM decides to do something stupid like trade Couturier.



I could be wrong but I don't want to trade Monahan for a maybe. Patrick might explode or he could be a Bennett.

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by Bonded

Oh I agree, that is why I don't think it makes sense to trade Monahan. The cost to upgrade on him will be massive and probably hurt the Flames more in the long run unless we go old or a GM decides to do something stupid like trade Couturier.



I could be wrong but I don't want to trade Monahan for a maybe. Patrick might explode or he could be a Bennett.

It would be a huge gamble for sure. But if Treliving does his homework and thinks that Patrick is the real deal, it's the only time you could trade for him. He explodes and he becomes an untouchable.

Monny is likely over rated around here. If he doesn't play with Johnny, and gets, for example, Bennett's minutes and line mates, he likely has trouble hitting 50 points.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Tron_fdc

Curious, is your solution to remain status quo? What is our most glaring need? How do you address it?

Personally I'm in the camp that thinks Monahan is not a true #1 center, and Brodie's value is a late 1st round, early second round pick. You don't agree, and that's fine.

Add in (IMO) our 2019 1st and/or depth from defense and go from there. Everyone has a price.

Like I said, it wouldn't be popular and that's fine. I like Monahan. But I don't see him winning us a cup.

Like I said, in two of Monahan's three playoff seasons, he delivered. So the first thing I need to know is what happened this year. Both against Colorado, and in the final weeks of the season. If it's an injury that is a repeat of last year, then yeah, we have to make a choice.

But in terms of status quo, we were second overall in the NHL this year. I think a number of players will step back next year - we had too many career years for it not to happen - but there's no reason to panic right now.

Obviously if some team with a top-end centre chooses to take a leave of its senses, you look into it. But in terms of changes, I don't see Brodie + Monahan getting us what you want, and I don't see us even contemplating it seriously. Brodie's going to go as part of something else.

[Kovaz]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

Like I said, in two of Monahan's three playoff seasons, he delivered. So the first thing I need to know is what happened this year. Both against Colorado, and in the final weeks of the season. If it's an injury that is a repeat of last year, then yeah, we have to make a choice.

But in terms of status quo, we were second overall in the NHL this year. I think a number of players will step back next year - we had too many career years for it not to happen - but there's no reason to panic right now.

Obviously if some team with a top-end centre chooses to take a leave of its senses, you look into it. But in terms of changes, I don't see Brodie + Monahan getting us what you want, and I don't see us even contemplating it seriously. Brodie's going to go as part of something else.

I'd dispute that claim. Two years ago, Monahan had 0 points 5v5 in the sweep against Anaheim, and four years ago he had 2 points 5v5 in the 11 games. He's still never had a 5v5 assist in the playoffs. And it's not like our powerplay was any worse this year - Monahan just wasn't the one scoring the points.

Powerplay specialists are valuable, but scoring more on the powerplay doesn't make up for doing nothing at 5v5. And no amount of powerplay scoring makes you a #1C if your 5v5 play is lackluster.

[N-E-B]

My guess is they try do a hockey trade with Brodie. Trade him for a middle six guy with size and a bit of an edge.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Kovaz

I'd dispute that claim. Two years ago, Monahan had 0 points 5v5 in the sweep against Anaheim, and four years ago he had 2 points 5v5 in the 11 games. He's still never had a 5v5 assist in the playoffs. And it's not like our powerplay was any worse this year - Monahan just wasn't the one scoring the points.

Powerplay specialists are valuable, but scoring more on the powerplay doesn't make up for doing nothing at 5v5. And no amount of powerplay scoring makes you a #1C if your 5v5 play is lackluster.

The belief that only 5v5 matters is literally the dumbest thing in modern hockey arguments.

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

The belief that only 5v5 matters is literally the dumbest thing in modern hockey arguments.

Actually, the dumbest thing is only concentrating on stats based on power play time.

There are lots of players who get decent stats only because they get premium power play time with skilled line mats.

If you can score 5v5, it’s likely you can score on the power play.

Looking at stats based on 5v5 play per 60 minutes is an attempt to compare apples to apples.


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[Flames0910]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

Like I said, in two of Monahan's three playoff seasons, he delivered. So the first thing I need to know is what happened this year. Both against Colorado, and in the final weeks of the season. If it's an injury that is a repeat of last year, then yeah, we have to make a choice.

But in terms of status quo, we were second overall in the NHL this year. I think a number of players will step back next year - we had too many career years for it not to happen - but there's no reason to panic right now.

Obviously if some team with a top-end centre chooses to take a leave of its senses, you look into it. But in terms of changes, I don't see Brodie + Monahan getting us what you want, and I don't see us even contemplating it seriously. Brodie's going to go as part of something else.

By Peters' comments it sounded like his conditioning wasn't very good. Spent the season recovering from surgery so he couldn't train properly. Seems like it could explain the drop-off (as well as the discrepancy from previous playoff seasons).

[420since1974]

I would lean towards trading all of Brodie, Frolik, and Stone for draft picks only.
That should give the Flames the Cap Space necessary to re-sign all of the RFAs and UFAs that they want/need to retain and possibly add a middle 6 forward on top.

[Kovaz]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

The belief that only 5v5 matters is literally the dumbest thing in modern hockey arguments.

It's not the only that matters, but it does matter. Having your #1C score like a fourth liner at 5v5 is a massive problem no matter how many PP goals he scores.

[dammage79]

Originally Posted by 420since1974

I would lean towards trading all of Brodie, Frolik, and Stone for draft picks only.
That should give the Flames the Cap Space necessary to re-sign all of the RFAs and UFAs that they want/need to retain and possibly add a middle 6 forward on top.

Interesting tactic but you're hamstringing your ability to acquire the best player possible for your team. Given the cap crunch the Flames will be walking into do you really want to go out into the FA market and make the next 3-5 years even worse?

The Flames have a beautiful thing going on on the back end with Valimaki, Andersson and Kylington. All cheap as borscht for the next couple of years.

I mean if they need to clear cap to take on better forwards, you need to explore player for players trades too. Can't rely on FA crops that generally get weaker and weaker the closer you get to July 1 anyways. I just dont think they can get what they need in FA besides goaltending.

I do like the idea of picking a bunch though. After tasting the success of having so many home grown players come up and take key roles on the team, I think we definitely need more picks. Brad's spent a ton getting the right kind of players to surround our homegrown talent, now he needs to bring back some balance.

But, you gotta shop around for player for player trades as well.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Kovaz

It's not the only that matters, but it does matter. Having your #1C score like a fourth liner at 5v5 is a massive problem no matter how many PP goals he scores.

Sure, but when your argument is "everything he's done doesn't really count", don't expect me to take it seriously. And before you object, that very much was the nature of your argument.

Now, that said, we do have options internally. While he went missing late in the season as well, if you really want to change up at centre, Lindholm is a possibility to slide into that role full time. I do also wonder if giving Bennett more time on the top line would help open space up for Gaudreau and Monahan/Lindholm. Perhaps not full time, but situationally.

[420since1974]

IMO, best case scenarios for draft picks only:
TJ Brodie should return a late-first and a second, OR two seconds and a third.
Michael Frolik could garner a mid-second AND a mid-third.
Michael Stone might fetch a late-second OR an early-third.

Those moves should clear enough Cap Space to re-sign Tkachuk, most of the current roster's FAs, and possibly add a middle six forward.

[Kovaz]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

Sure, but when your argument is "everything he's done doesn't really count", don't expect me to take it seriously. And before you object, that very much was the nature of your argument.

Now, that said, we do have options internally. While he went missing late in the season as well, if you really want to change up at centre, Lindholm is a possibility to slide into that role full time. I do also wonder if giving Bennett more time on the top line would help open space up for Gaudreau and Monahan/Lindholm. Perhaps not full time, but situationally.

Powerplay goals still count, what I'm disputing is using total points as enough support for him having played well. Your post implied that this year was the major exception. But what was really different this year?

In 2015, Monahan scored 2 points 5v5, picked up an assist on an empty netter, and had 3 PP points. We got outscored 7-4 5v5 with him on the ice, and the team was 7/36 on the powerplay (19.4%).

In 2017, Monahan scored 0 points 5v5, and picked up 5 PP points (4 goals, 1 assist). We got outscored 3-0 5v5 with him on the ice, and the team was 6/16 on the powerplay (37.5%)

In 2019, Monahan scored 0 points 5v5, and didn't pick up any PP points. We were actually positive (2-1) with him on the ice 5v5, and the team was 5/22 on the powerplay (22.7%)

If anything, this was his strongest year 5v5 in the playoffs, and it was just bad luck that he didn't pick up his usual powerplay points despite the team still scoring. There's 5 guys on the ice and only 3 of them get a point after all.

So if the last two playoff years weren't concerning, this one shouldn't be either, because if anything it was better than the prior two years. The only thing that makes it look worse is he went from getting a point on 60% of the powerplay goals we scored to getting a point on 0% of them, despite the powerplay producing at the same rate.

If Monahan had 3 points in this series, all scored on the powerplay, and all of the scores were the same, would you have said he delivered?

[FanIn80]

Brodie is a #2/#3 on a lot of teams in this league. Top-4 on almost any team in this league.