No Amount Of Alcohol In Pregnancy Is Safe, Ever, Pediatricians Group Says

[nik-]

Originally Posted by ducay

fyp. You wouldn't expect a child to do their own drinking, do you?

no son of mine is gonna be a lightweight!

YOU GET OUTTA MY HOUSE!

[Ducay]

Originally Posted by nik-

no son of mine is gonna be a lightweight!

YOU GET OUTTA MY HOUSE!

That's why prenatal drinking is the best way for the fetus to develop its alcohol tolerance. Don't want that wimp getting drunk on 2 beer like a hoser!

[nik-]

I'll learn Morse code so I can tap out "CHUG CHUG CHUG CHUG!" on my pregnant wife's belly.

[OldDutch]

Originally Posted by Peanut

So is the UK just overrun with FASD babies then? I thought their recommendations were to limit consumption to a few units of alcohol per week.

I enjoyed the statistics based analysis of many pregnancy risks and myths in "Expecting Better", myself. http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/cr/0143125702/ref=mw_dp_cr

Well to be fair, my good friend was a youth parole officer in Liverpool, and in his words the kids there are way worse than here. That said, I am sure a few drinks here or there isn't usually going to hurt the baby. Problem is if the doctors here say 2 drinks/week many people will do it and some will have a FASD baby. They will then turn around and blame the doctors for telling them to do something they probably should know not to.

So they say abstain. That is what they said both times to us, and apart from 1/2 glass once or twice in 9 months my wife did. It wasn't really that hard for her, but knowing some chug a lug Moms out there I am sure it is hard for others.

I just know as a parent if one of our kids had FASD my wife and I would torment ourselves forever. I am just glad we did what we did, and now that our 1 1/2 yr old is onto milk we can enjoy without regret!

[The Yen Man]

Is alcohol consumption so important that you would risk the health of your unborn child to satisfy a craving? I dunno, it's 9 months of abstaining from consuming certain foods and drinks. 9 months seems like an ok trade off to mitigate against the risk of a lifetime of hardship for you and your child.

If it were me, I'd be making a list of what my partner should and should not eat/drink. Heck, I'd even volunteer to change my diet to match hers if it would make her feel better.

[Peanut]

Yeah. Each to their own, I just would side-eye "no amount is safe, ever". It seems more like liability protection than anything based on actual studies like kermitology mentioned. They can't ethically test what the "safe" level would be without inherently risking fetuses. And, my impression is, anyways, that a lot of the data they have on fetuses exposed to alcohol are cases where the baby has been exposed to a large quantity (ie inebriated Mom and/or drug using Mom, not just one drink here and there).

Anyways. My sense is that at 38.5 weeks it's statistically riskier for me to drive to my doctors appointment today (Glenmore and deerfoot are both part of the route) than drinking the half glass of Guiness on Saturday night was.

[Street Pharmacist]

It's not liability protection as a public recommendation, it's more risk vs benefit. There's no ethical away to determine safe limits, and alcohol provides no medical benefit. Pretty easy equation. I will not judge a woman of she had a single drink, as that's still her right and likely of no consequence. I would not recommend it or do it myself as a) I cannot be pregnant, and b) there's no need to drink

[Peanut]

Nothing is 100% safe is my thinking on it.

I got a bad bout of food poisoning a few weeks ago. One of the questions they asked was "have you consumed anything that could have been contaminated with Listeria?". I wasn't really sure how to answer. Have i been eating deli meat and unpasteurized cheese? No. But the last major listeria recalls that I can remember were for cantaloupe, spinach, hummus, and ice cream. Last I checked, none of those items are on the "DO NOT EAT" list for pregnant ladies.

And there's been news articles lately about the salmonella outbreak that's still of an undetermined source. It might be eggs or poultry, but it might also be from dog food. Again, they don't tell you not to feed your pets dry kibble. Don't clean up cat litter, yes. But don't fees your pets would be new advice for me and this is my third time around.

Obviously take precautions as necessary but nothing is black and white imo. Plus the recommendations are not to drink while trying to conceive, while pregnant, and while breastfeeding. Depending on the length of time you do the first and last items, you could easily be looking at 2+ years of complete abstention. Which, then, lots of people are going to start trying again for number 2 or 3.

So yeah. 4-6+ years to never have a glass of wine or a beer here or there because they "just don't know the safe limit" seems a little crazy to me. Particularly when other countries/cultures seem to have a slightly more relaxed take on the whole thing.

[DoubleF]

Originally Posted by Peanut

Yeah. Each to their own, I just would side-eye "no amount is safe, ever". It seems more like liability protection than anything based on actual studies like kermitology mentioned. They can't ethically test what the "safe" level would be without inherently risking fetuses. And, my impression is, anyways, that a lot of the data they have on fetuses exposed to alcohol are cases where the baby has been exposed to a large quantity (ie inebriated Mom and/or drug using Mom, not just one drink here and there).

Anyways. My sense is that at 38.5 weeks it's statistically riskier for me to drive to my doctors appointment today (Glenmore and deerfoot are both part of the route) than drinking the half glass of Guiness on Saturday night was.

I have asked some individuals in the professional field and their explanation in a nutshell was: since there are such wild variations in out comes, zero tolerance is the best approach because they(doctors) just don't know how alcohol will affect all fetuses in a general sense. How it was explained to me, was that in some cases, only a few drinks throughout the entire pregnancy, FASD can occur. Some women have had drinks throughout the entire pregnancy, FASD did not occur. If you as a doctoral group can't figure it out, obviously the best thing to say is "zero tolerance". The risk could be as low as single digits for all we know, you still don't take that risk.

My understanding is this: an accidental few drinks when you didn't even know you're pregnant won't change anything. "Damage is already done, or no damage what so ever" so to speak. If you accidentally drink at the beginning or accidentally put a cocktail to your mouth before realizing your mistake during pregnancy (someone gives you the wrong punch at a party), child shouldn't (theoretically) be doomed. But you still shouldn't roll the dice and figure out a minimum consumption level. Essentially we were told, don't freak out about alcohol, but don't go randomly consuming it either because we don't know what will happen regardless of amount.

On a random note, for the 9 months abstain comment, I recently made such a comment to a new mother (asked if she was relieved she could drink again). She stared at me with a sad look and told me she still doesn't drink because the breast milk would be affected (Doh! I'm a dick!). Supposedly, if a breast feeding mother drinks, it will take about half a day for the breast milk to be alcohol free. Since babies feed at a rate lower than half a day, it obviously doesn't work. Pump/storing and formula (if you want a drink) are supposedly the way to go until at least 3 months old and even then it's not really advised to allow alcohol into the child's system regardless of amount.

I'm no expert, but these are my understandings on the topic thus far.

[kermitology]

Originally Posted by NuclearFart

Just because there will never be a robust RCT doesn't mean all other evidence is invalid and no conclusion/recommendation can be drawn. I'm as close to a statistical purist as possible, but if you push too far in that direction you rapidly delve into nihilistic territory.

Everybody wants black and white answers from their docs, without realizing that virtually everything in medicine is a probability. A respected organization is finally drawing a bold line based on what the best possible evidence shows, and I applaud them for this.

It doesn't mean that it's the right line. It's an opinion, and one study. You shouldn't be making judgements based on the results of a single study.

[kermitology]

My main point in this discussion is that there is currently no way to definitively determine the point at which alcohol, OTC medications, or herbal supplements, etc. can have an effect on fetal development. So the general advice is: avoid.

That's certainly a valid position based on the uncertainty, but that isn't in and of itself the true answer; it's the safe answer.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Reaper

Not wanting to be bitched at by an idiot I replied "your kid doesn't stand a chance with you, does it?"

By those standards, about two-thirds of the people over the age of 30 in North America or Europe didn't stand a chance. Anyone here born in Canada before about 1975 had a mom who was probably prescribed a beer a day during pregnancy and in the first weeks of breastfeeding.

Originally Posted by The Yen Man

Is alcohol consumption so important that you would risk the health of your unborn child to satisfy a craving? I dunno, it's 9 months of abstaining from consuming certain foods and drinks. 9 months seems like an ok trade off to mitigate against the risk of a lifetime of hardship for you and your child.

If it were me, I'd be making a list of what my partner should and should not eat/drink. Heck, I'd even volunteer to change my diet to match hers if it would make her feel better.

It's not just alcohol, and it's not just when she's pregnant. It's caffeine, deli meats, many kinds of fish, unpasteurized milk and cheese, and a bunch of other stuff, many of which is not 100 per cent safe while breastfeeding either. And of course, a lot of women have multiple kids in succession, with breast-feeding in between.

So sure, you give up alcohol, coffee and tea, pop, sandwich meats, cheeses, tuna, and salmon for five years. Let us know how it goes.

Better safe than sorry sounds like perfectly common sense. But when you add up all the things you should be better safe than sorry about, you end up with the extreme anxiety our modern society fosters around having kids. It's a wonder anyone has kids at all, when you consider how incredibly fraught and micro-managed we've made the whole affair.

[Reaper]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

By those standards, about two-thirds of the people over the age of 30 in North America or Europe didn't stand a chance. Anyone here born in Canada before about 1975 had a mom who was probably prescribed a beer a day during pregnancy and in the first weeks of breastfeeding.

I know it was commonplace but we know better now than we did then. Doctors endorsed cigarettes in the 1950s but we found out that ain't exactly a good thing so we stopped. I just find it really hard to see women drinking while pregnant because it screams "Screw you kid; I'm doing what I want."

I probably wouldn't have said anything but she seemed like a real C U Next Tuesday while beaking at me so I beaked back. I had already imbibed so I basically just thought of the most impactful thing to say and said it.

[Locke]

Its also never safe, ever, to engage in vehicular travel of any kind and crossing the street is right out. Right out!

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Locke

Its also never safe, ever, to engage in vehicular travel of any kind and crossing the street is right out. Right out!

That sounds like a smart-ass comment, but it is factually correct: no amount of driving a vehicle on the road is safe. Whenever you get in a vehicle for non-essential purposes (going to a movie, shopping for patio furniture, visiting a friend), you're putting your life at risk for purely selfish reasons.

That's why I get annoyed at 'no safe level of [XYZ]' headlines. Very little we do in this world is 'safe' if we define safe as no chance of illness, injury, or death.

[schteve_d]

I just thought everybody knew that. Surprised to see that 10% of pregnant women drink.

[troutman]

I was born just before The Summer Of Love.

Goodness knows what my parents were ingesting then.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

That sounds like a smart-ass comment, but it is factually correct: no amount of driving a vehicle on the road is safe. Whenever you get in a vehicle for non-essential purposes (going to a movie, shopping for patio furniture, visiting a friend), you're putting your life at risk for purely selfish reasons.

That's why I get annoyed at 'no safe level of [XYZ]' headlines. Very little we do in this world is 'safe' if we define safe as no chance of illness, injury, or death.

Thts right, thats why my remark, as smart-assed as it may seem, is also topical.

Everything we do is to some degree selfish and unsafe. Time to make some peace with it and pick your battles. Getting smashed while pregnant is probably unwise, but the occasional drink here or there is also unlikely to be the undoing of all involved.

Granted, I've never seen a pregnant woman crush a pint in a pub after a test.

[#-3]

This title is sensationalized.

The Dose is what makes the poison. Usually when you calculating a safe dosage you look a BMI, poisonous impact on cells, biological half-life.....

In pregnant women there's a different person receiving the does' different with a different BMI, and metabolic processes, so measuring and understanding safe does' is a difficult thing. What we do know is with most things the safe does is much much much smaller. But 0 is a fallacy, is drinking during pregnancy a good idea, No. But if a woman has a sip of wine will her baby automatically come out with FADS, that's just not how it works.

[indes]

I can't believe the human race has survived this long! I bet they really cut back during pregnancy pre 20th century