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Old 09-16-2021, 10:18 AM   #221
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I appreciate the informative post you've made. In regards to the lung function tests I've never had anything officially tested, but my performance in the gym seems pretty similar before and after.

The study I cited seems to indicate previous infection has lower rate of reinfection than even the vaccines, and as I said if that study is not accurate I would be curious to see that as well.

I know this is hyperbole but I currently look at my situation as essentially, I could get a heart transplant and it has slightly lower resting heart rate. Is it worth the risk of complications for what could be considered a minimal improvement?

Like I said I know its hyperbole, but it's essentially where I'm coming from.
That's not hyperbole, it's a fallacious argument.

To be clear, outside of the proven superior protection provided by the vaccine,
you will not be able to go to the gym without a vaccine passport or paying hundreds of dollars for tests every week.
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Old 09-16-2021, 10:45 AM   #222
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We've also had three close contacts who have had strokes since being vaccinated.
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That statement seems unlikely. And even if it were true wouldn't it be near statistically impossible they were all attributable to covid?
It's actually pretty cool! The odds of knowing 3 people who reported having a stroke after a COVID vaccination (keeping in mind this number is strictly correlation, without any evidence of causation) is 1/1,181,470.

To put it in perspective, the odds of being struck by lightning are about 1/1,000,000 and the odds of being killed by a meteorite is 1/700,000.

Darkknight is pretty lucky, really! Not "win the lottery" lucky, but definitely closer than most of us!
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Old 09-16-2021, 10:45 AM   #223
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I get that quite a few of you held back your snark and vitriol against DarkKnight, but if you guys actually think that the vast majority of it was as "polite" as you think it was overall, stop kidding yourself. Many of us are frustrated and looking for an outlet. It's inherently obvious to many standing on the opposite stance as your own. This is why many people are entrenching themselves and pulling out of any opportunity to have any meaningful discussion that might sway them towards vaccination. I'd perceive maybe a quarter of those responses, if viewed from the other side (ie: DarkKnight's POV), might feel respectful. I totally get where many of you are coming from. Not automatically tearing him a new one and berating him as if he was an Oiler fan is a pretty big investment of emotional energy for many of you. I respect that. But from the opposite side POV, it's not enough of an "effort" to feel like they are being treated with respect to their POV. While restrained, many comments still could be perceived to be dripping with an underlying attitude that doesn't feel nice to address. I could see someone like DarkKnight being extra sensitive to some of the criticism and "flinch" easily. If the shoe was on the other foot, I feel like that's how I'd respond when just reading many of the responses.

This was what I was trying to mention and address a few days ago. I have been trying to understand both sides.

I understand why many of you are saying DarkKnight's stance is not helping the overall pandemic. I don't disagree with you. But in all honesty, the predominant approach that was used as a group (not all posts specifically) isn't helping either. DarkKnight is probably more likely to just retreat and ignore all that has been said so far purely due to the fact he probably feels like crap after the vast majority of the responses here. Don't pat yourself on the back thinking that a information dump mic drop with slightly restrained snark is doing your part in moving us towards reaching herd immunity because that approach is IMO just as unhelpful as DarkKnight's stance. A preaching to the choir stance (basically bible bashing and hellfire fear mongering) approach is going to be ineffective to someone who doesn't subscribe to the exact same belief as you. It never has been a highly effective approach, why would it suddenly be an effective one now?


I spoke with the unvaccinated friend yesterday briefly maybe a minute or two at most. It was hard to encroach on the topic. It was basically along the lines of:

Both: Damn, new pandemic restrictions starting tomorrow. That sucks.
Unvax: I basically only meet up with family (multi generation unvaxx), so nothing really changes for us. **Entrenched attitude.
Me: We had a birthday party planned this weekend. I guess we'll be breaking the rules as well. Do you think the vaccine verification system will be a pain?
Unvax: We do takeout now if we order out, so it won't really affect what we do that much.
Me: But it's still nice to sit in a restaurant for the ambience sometimes though, right?
Unvax: Yeah, maybe.

Again, maybe what I did was a waste of time. My goal was not to immediately attempt to convert the other person, but to soften their stance against getting the vaccination. My hopes was that leading the conversation towards an idea of FOMO and hoping that FOMO grows enough that my friend might do what's necessary to get past what is keeping her and her family from getting vaccinated so that they won't miss out. I don't know why she and her family won't vaccinate. To a certain extent, it doesn't matter. She started off with perhaps a mentality that there's no reason for her to vaccinate, but I tried mentioning FOMO to see if she might on her own decide that maybe there is a reason to vaccinate. That's the approach I tried to apply from what I learned in the pod cast that was linked by the other poster.


What most people have in general is fear. DarkKnight's fear/concerns might be uncommon, but it still exists. I think the Covid label is complicating a simple concept for many. If someone has a fear of heights, compassion and incremental steps is the path to helping someone potentially over coming it. An exposure therapy or cold info approach or sharing some story about sky diving won't help and in fact might cause that person to fear heights even further. That's what you guys a basically doing to DarkKnight IMO. I'd really hope we can find a way to get DarkKnight and his wife to get double vaccinated, but whatever has been done so far I do not think it helping and in fact might be hurting the chances.

I'm saying as constructive criticism that some of you are not only not helping, but making matters worse. If some of you are going to get mad that I didn't take another swing at him like he was a pinata, there's nothing I can do about that. But please seriously contemplate whether the current approach is effective.

Also, props for DarkKnight to keep responding. The average person probably would have not bothered to respond to continue discussing long ago.
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Old 09-16-2021, 10:54 AM   #224
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Good post Double F

It's really ####ing hard not to be upset.

But we do need to try harder. Because no argument is won by berating someone. You will NEVER change someone's mind through shame or degradation.

You will only ever change it by understanding and then getting them to ask themselves the right questions and questioning their own mindset. you can't do that with aggression.

Lessons I keep trying to learn every day.
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Old 09-16-2021, 10:59 AM   #225
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a long post, much better worded than anything I have posted on here.

Spoiler!
But the thing is I honestly don't believe he came here to learn or exchange ideas. As I said I think he is here to "Make a Point" and knowing 3 people that got strokes from the vaccination is well hard to believe, but maybe he is being truthful.
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Old 09-16-2021, 11:00 AM   #226
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You have a 1/700,000 chance of being killed by a meteor? Christ!
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Old 09-16-2021, 11:16 AM   #227
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That statement seems unlikely. And even if it were true wouldn't it be near statistically impossible they were all attributable to covid vaccine?
I do agree that it is unlikely that these incidents are related to vaccination, but it does cause a moment of pause.

There is no benefit for me to fabricate a story like that to a group of individuals of whom I'm looking for advice and opinions.

I am presenting the facts to ypu as I have been made aware of them.
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Old 09-16-2021, 11:24 AM   #228
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I know this is hyperbole but I currently look at my situation as essentially, I could get a heart transplant and it has slightly lower resting heart rate. Is it worth the risk of complications for what could be considered a minimal improvement?

Like I said I know its hyperbole, but it's essentially where I'm coming from.
Totally understood. Let's change the analogy a bit though to become closer in line with the actual risks of getting the vaccine.

You could lower your heart rate slightly by going for a 20 minute walk every day.

You also have a friend that tried that, but they got hit by a car and broke their leg on one of their walks. Emotion says you shouldn't do it. Looking at the odds of benefit vs. risk, you absolutely should go for the walk every day.

We know that COVID has killed a lot more relatively healthy people than the vaccines (it's not currently conclusive if anyone in Canada has died from mRNA vaccines as far as I can tell).

Quote:
Overall, 68.8% (11/16) had similar severity; 18.8% (3/16) had worse symptoms; and 12.5% (2/16) had milder symptoms with the second episode.
https://jim.bmj.com/content/69/6/1253

That means to some extent you're playing the lottery with a second COVID infection as a possibility. It's proven vaccines decrease the severity.

Then also think of what happens to society (business restrictions, people losing income, full hospitals, delayed cancer treatments) and assess how much you are willing to do to prevent yourself from being a vector of potential spread. It may not feel as heroic as pulling someone from a burning building, but by going to get vaccinated, your actions contribute to saving the lives and livelihoods of others.
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Old 09-16-2021, 11:30 AM   #229
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As for questions regarding earlier vaccination options, it was my family doctor's opinion to wait 6 months after recovery before getting vaccinated, as it has been shown individuals who have recently removed from covid can have more serious side effects from vaccination.
So your family doctor's advice was to get vaccinated, but to wait six months before doing so?

If so, are you planning on getting vaccinated in October? If you can't trust your family doctor then why not? With Delta, I suspect your family doctor would think it's even more important for you to get vaxxed.
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Old 09-16-2021, 11:56 AM   #230
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But the thing is I honestly don't believe he came here to learn or exchange ideas. As I said I think he is here to "Make a Point" and knowing 3 people that got strokes from the vaccination is well hard to believe, but maybe he is being truthful.
First and foremost, I did not state the vaccine was the cause for the strokes just as it was worth a pause.

Secondly, if I was here to "make a point" would flyby not been more effective, rather than responding to posts and engaging in discussion?

I personally just lost a close friend due to complications with covid, and now with the restrictions it is unlikely I will be able to attend his funeral.

Do not assume to know my motivations, and if you aren't interested in discussion I kindly ask you to refrain responding to my posts.

Last edited by Darkknight; 09-16-2021 at 12:06 PM.
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Old 09-16-2021, 12:01 PM   #231
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First and foremost, I did not state the vaccine was the cause for the strokes just as it was worth a pause.

Secondly, if I was here to "make a point" would flyby not been more effective, rather than responding to posts and engaging in discussion?

I personally just lost a close friend due to complications with covid, and now with the restrictions it is unlikely I will be able to attend his funeral.

Do not assume to know my motivations, and if your aren't interested in discussion I kindly ask you to refrain responding to my posts.
As I said earlier people have posted polite rebuttals, including using the study you posted, yet at no point have you are steadfast in your position.

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“The study also found that individuals who were previously infected with the novel coronavirus and had received a single dose of the Pfizer vaccine appeared to have gained additional protection against the delta variant.“

Go get your shot now.
What do you need to be swayed, what evidence is needed to change your view?

Do you know what you want to see or are you not changing your opinion.
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Old 09-16-2021, 12:09 PM   #232
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First and foremost, I did not state the vaccine was the cause for the strokes just as it was worth a pause.

Secondly, if I was here to "make a point" would flyby not been more effective, rather than responding to posts and engaging in discussion?

I personally just lost a close friend due to complications with covid, and now with the restrictions it is unlikely I will be able to attend his funeral.

Do not assume to know my motivations, and if your aren't interested in discussion I kindly ask you to refrain responding to my posts.
What is it that makes you hesitant?



Is it the stroke risks? Those have been explained to be worse with covid.
Is it that you think you are protected? Protection is better with a vaccine.


What, specifically, is the hesitancy? Have you make a pluses and minuses list of getting or not getting it? It's tough for us to understand, because the logic of your situation makes it impossible to select your postilion. Plus most of us are kinda pissed off right now, if you haven't noticed...
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Old 09-16-2021, 12:09 PM   #233
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So your family doctor's advice was to get vaccinated, but to wait six months before doing so?

If so, are you planning on getting vaccinated in October? If you can't trust your family doctor then why not? With Delta, I suspect your family doctor would think it's even more important for you to get vaxxed.
The plan was to get vaxxed in October. Which is why I've waited for this long. I was ready to get vaxxed before we got sick but as stated on doctors advice, we've waited.

Now that some studies, flawed or not, have come out saying that natural immunity is strong it has made me question whether getting vaccinated is necessary or worth the potential (albeit) small risks.
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Old 09-16-2021, 12:11 PM   #234
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It's highly improbable that 3 close associates would have had a stroke from the vaccine. In fact, if this were true, we'd probably would have seen some significant news on it, because those odds of that happening astronomical.

There is also no scientific report that I've see that shows that once you've had covid, you're golden.

The fact is, the vaccines are pretty damned safe, offer serious protection, and they're free. And it doesn't hurt getting tapped in the arm.
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Old 09-16-2021, 12:12 PM   #235
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You have a 1/700,000 chance of being killed by a meteor? Christ!

Iíve topped up my meteor insurance
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Old 09-16-2021, 12:24 PM   #236
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Iíve topped up my meteor insurance
Some of those space rocks contain valuable resources. Insurance AND diamonds.
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Old 09-16-2021, 12:25 PM   #237
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The risk of severe illness is significantly higher if you are not vaccinated, irregardless of a previous covid infection.

And the risk of negative vaccine side effects are also significantly less then the risks associated with catching covid, irregardless of a previous covid infection.

And unless you're locking yourself in your basement and never leaving your house you will eventually catch covid. That's how this #### works.





Its that ####ing simple. The rest of this discussion is just ignorant talking in circles.
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Old 09-16-2021, 12:38 PM   #238
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The problem with seeking an taking a doctor’s recommendation is I’d worry that I’d have one of their docs opposing vaccinations. I’d ask first for the doc’s opinion on vaccinations.
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Old 09-16-2021, 12:42 PM   #239
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Now that some studies, flawed or not, have come out saying that natural immunity is strong it has made me question whether getting vaccinated is necessary or worth the potential (albeit) small risks.
Wait so you acknowledge the studies maybe "flawed" but you still hang your hat on them.


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Old 09-16-2021, 12:44 PM   #240
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Iíve topped up my meteor insurance
I have an umbrella I use to deter meteors. As long as Iíve carried it, I have never been hit by a meteor.

Iíd be willing to sell it to you for the right price.
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