2020/2021 Trade Speculation and Rumours

[BigErnSalute_16]

Originally Posted by transplant99

So....Gio is a 3rd pairing dman ( Norris winner 18 months ago) Sam Bennett is a 2nd line C (was on pace for fewer points than Rinaldo last season) and Valimaki is the PP QB on the 1st unit without ever proving he can play that role at this level?

OK then.

Jesus man, can you read?

The whole point behind this lineup was so that we weren't handcuffed to the 1st line 2nd line 3rd line mind set and be able to roll all the lines.

Gio is playing with Kylington to help him along and balance the pairs. That doesn't mean he's going to play 6 minutes a night. He's the first guy to get extra shifts plus he's going to be a fixture on the pk. Valimaki playing with Tanev who has proven to be a good partner for young skilled rookies. Plus I literally said you could just switch them.

Plus Hanifin has a bad game guess who the first person to move up is? Uhh Gio duh. give your head a shake. same with Valimaki.

And for Bennett, its more so about the idea of splitting up Gaudreau and Monahan which leaves really only one option for his centre in Bennett since him and Backlund's offensive game are too similar in that they both need to be the primary puck carrier. The speed tenacity and physicality of Bennett and Dube, in theory, should give Gaudreau more space to work with.

The point is to be able to play the top three forward lines and all three pairs at nearly equal TOI at 5on5 and have special teams be the difference in players ice times.

And the pp qb is up for grabs but it didn't work too well with Gio or Hanifin so that leaves Andersson or Valimaki and if Valimaki is as good as he looks then we are going to need to find opportunities for him to prove it and break out.

[transplant99]

Yeah, I can read... But thanks for the pot shot.

The thing about rolling 4 lines though is that they all have to be equally defensively responsible as well as offensively capable and able to match up with the opponents top lines regardless.

This is not that. That's why you see such discrepancies on every team in ES TOI.

Also, when you try and space things like this...one single PK will screw the lines throughout for the 3 or 4 minutes following, and the "rolling 4 lines" goes out the window.

Lindholm, Ryan, Backlund are the top returning PK guys among F's. Depending on who was on the ice at the time of the penalty, that's 3 different lines affected on a 2 minute kill...now im sure Nordstrom/Simon take up the lost Reider/Jankowski minutes, but that doesnt really change anything unless one of the previous 3 are removed from PK duty.

Its something every coach has to account for when setting up lines and why very few teams can go the route of spreading out top players over 4 lines or 3 d pairings.

As for Bennett...well i dont see him anywhere near 2nd line minutes and being effective since he has never shown that capability and particularly at C. You have to have solid hockey IQ and decision making capabilities at that spot regardless of what some believe, and he just doesn't. One of the few players who is more effective when played less, which doesnt allow for everyone getting similar ice time since he can't kill penalties nor really play top line PP....at least in the previous 5 years anyhow.

[FanIn80]

Mangiapane Bennett Dube would be a fun line.

[djsFlames]

Originally Posted by FanIn80

Mangiapane Bennett Dube would be a fun line.

If we had picked up a top 6 winger in UFA that likely would've been a line going into the season.

But since we did not, Mangi likely stays up with Tkachuk.

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by transplant99

As for Bennett...well i dont see him anywhere near 2nd line minutes and being effective since he has never shown that capability and particularly at C. You have to have solid hockey IQ and decision making capabilities at that spot regardless of what some believe, and he just doesn't. One of the few players who is more effective when played less, which doesnt allow for everyone getting similar ice time since he can't kill penalties nor really play top line PP....at least in the previous 5 years anyhow.

Brutal take.

[Jiri Hrdina]

What’s brutal about it?

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

What’s brutal about it?

Saying he doesn't have good hockey IQ for one. Sam Bennett is a very smart hockey player. T99 is saying he has shown nothing given minutes yet he was dominant this past postseason or does that not count? It was a New Era like take and it was brutal. Saying he can't play 2C when he has never been given that opportunity is pure unfounded speculation.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

Saying he doesn't have good hockey IQ for one. Sam Bennett is a very smart hockey player. T99 is saying he has shown nothing given minutes yet he was dominant this past postseason or does that not count? It was a New Era like take and it was brutal.

So he has a different opinion than you so that makes it brutal?
There have been signs that hockey sense is not a strength of Sam
He skates himself into trouble, overhandles the puck and doesn’t make good use of his line mates
Perhaps he has turned a corner as certainly he looked much different in the playoffs. But that’s a small sample size. Good players are good players because they do it consistently
Nothing brutal about that

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

So he has a different opinion than you so that makes it brutal?
There have been signs that hockey sense is not a strength of Sam
He skates himself into trouble, overhandles the puck and doesn’t make good use of his line mates
Perhaps he has turned a corner as certainly he looked much different in the playoffs. But that’s a small sample size. Good players are good players because they do it consistently
Nothing brutal about that

His use of his linemates has been fine when he has linemates that are actually NHL calibre players. Go back and look at his junior play and his rookie year, he is a pretty smart player when he has decent talent to play with. He has been mishandled badly by this organization imo. You can't make a judgement a player can't play top 6 C if he has never been given the opportunity to do so. Saying he can't do it was the part that was a brutal take to me. We don't know and we won't unless he gets an actual look there. Not a shift or two or half a game, an actual look.

[Jiri Hrdina]

What he did in junior has little relevance for me
The question is can he process the game at the nhl speed?
He’s had opportunities. We can debate if they have been enough or sustained but he’s had them

[Jiri Hrdina]

What he did in junior has little relevance for me
The question is can he process the game at the nhl speed?
He’s had opportunities. We can debate if they have been enough or sustained but he’s had them

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

What’s brutal about it?

These parts are brutal about it:

Originally Posted by transplant99

As for Bennett...well i dont see him anywhere near 2nd line minutes and being effective since he has never shown that capability and particularly at C.

Because Bennett has most certainly been effective the only time he was given 2nd line minutes (2015-16).

Bennett has never so much as received an opportunity as a second line centre, so it's arguing a false premise. Of course he hasn't produced a ton centering guys like Brouwer, Chiasson, Bouma, and Lazar - but that's a role I'm not sure anyone would realistically be expected to produce a lot outside of hot streaks.

You have to have solid hockey IQ and decision making capabilities at that spot regardless of what some believe, and he just doesn't.

I mean, this is wrong.

If it weren't:

-Someone like Bob Hartley would not have compared him to Peter Forsberg following his D+1 year

-Someone like Bob Hartley would not have excitededly mentioned he was comfortable matching Bennett up to guys like Anze Kopitar down the middle following his D+2 year (just before we fired him)

-Someone like Brad Treliving would not have isolated his strong play down the middle following his D+3 year playoffs

-Someone like Glen Gulutzan would not have compared the player's ostensible development curve to Tyler Seguin following his D+3 year

-Someone like Geoff Ward would not have kept him steady at centre in the top 9 during his D+7 year playoffs, along with playing (and producing) on his #1PP unit in Matthew Tkachuk's absense, especially when he had a productive and healthy Derek Ryan available

-Someone like Craig Conroy would not insist that the player has always been viewed by the organization as a centre following his D+7 year.

- He would not be one of the better shot generators, chance generators, and shot assist generators on this roster

I mean, there's a lot of video evidence of Bennett showing strong IQ, once you look past the occasional failed toedrag (and he's far from the only player to botch toedrags)

One of the few players who is more effective when played less,

This is simply an unsubstantiated claim. The player had his least effective year when played less, in fact in Transplant99's own words was outproduced by Zac Rinaldo when played less. He has his most effective year when played more.

he can't kill penalties

This is false, considering he has been successfully used on the PK in the past.

nor really play top line PP....

And yet another poor take, considering he was literally, and productively playing top line PP in this year's playoffs after Tkachuk's injury. He can play top line PP. Perhaps the Flames don't have a niche for him on their PP, but that's probably because of the Flames' highly skilled, left-shot-heavy top six forward group.

If he can't play top line PP, why was he selected to play top line PP in the most important games of the year?

[Vinny01]

Doesn’t make use of the absolute brutal line mates he has been given in all but one season (where he scored 18 goals as a 19 year old)

For Bennett it is not all on him and it is not all on the organization. Giving him Brouwer as a 20 year old center then constant shifts back to the wing to play with Jankowski or some other plug.

They test him in the top 6 and before the first game is over he is shuffled through the lineup.

Bennett has a knack for trying to get too fancy and is often thwarted by the defense (he has a small handful of beauty goals when he is able to pull it off). Benny also takes several boneheaded penalties that hurt the team and puts him in the dog house.

There is a reason Treliving has not pulled the trigger on a Bennett trade in the last 6 years but we are absolutely nearing the breaking point. I think they will likely try and see if the third line that was so great in the playoffs is able to keep their momentum going but if Bennett is in a similar spot next offseason I think both he and the organization will be ready to part ways.

Ideally he is able to carry over his play down the middle and the Flames have a middle 6 center on their hands who is able to elevate to first line in the playoffs

[Buzzard]

I like Bennett. A lot. Especially when he's on, but his penchant for taking brutal penalties often at the worst time, is enough to suggest to me he doesn't have high end hockey sense. That's one of the few things Bennett is consistent at.

[Calgary4LIfe]

I'm all for rolling 3 lines at equal time, especially this upcoming condensed season. Will save some wear and tear on players.


Backlund: I think he is extremely valuable on this team. Not only does he take the toughest assignments for the Flames (one of the toughest in terms of zone starts and quality of comp from what I remember in the entire NHL), but he produces while doing so, and he continually makes the players he plays with produce too. Bouma, Colborne, Bennett, Frolik, Mangiapane, and I do think that he helps Tkachuk too. Bouma hit his career best in Calgary - I mean best ever goal scoring season from the start of Juniors - AHL - NHL - AHL - career ever high in goals. That's something.



Monahan isn't as slow as I think he looks like out there. I do think that the Flames' system makes him look slower out there (ditto for Tkachuk). He didn't look particularly slow under Hartley or Peters' first year when the team played a more uptempo game. I do think that maybe he is bulking up too much (kid is huge now), and some players (like Iginla) slimmed down to increase their speed.


I love Bennett here, and I still believe that he can be a big asset on this team (even in the regular season). I wouldn't expect him to be "Playoff Bennett" during the regular season - if he tries, he is going to be in and out of the lineup all season long with injuries. What I do expect is that he will be generating more offence this year, and getting more comfortable with having stability in position, ice-time and line-mates for the first time since his rookie season. I do expect progression, but I don't think he should be given the keys to the 2C position. Let him get comfortable with 3C. Give him a good deal of rope there. Be patient with him. Make him earn the rest (and I bet he will eventually).



Lindholm didn't produce much while trying to replace Backlund. That line might have been good defensively, but they were rather poor offensively. I think it takes a special kind of player to be very strong defensively while also producing well offensively. Backlund is a bona-fide 2nd line centre production wise, and he is an elite defensive centre that probably earned a Selke or two in the past when you factor-in his usage - unbelievable that he produces at that rate. I would really hate to see what the Flames end up looking like without Backlund in the line-up, as suddenly the other lines have to start in the defensive zone more often, and will no longer have the luxury of easier match-ups. It is more difficult to produce when your focus - at least more of your focus - will need to be spent on shutting down the opposing team.


I am 100% ok with the lineup as it stands today, and I just hope that Ward is tailoring a system to get this team to play with a bit more speed. I don't think there are any obvious holes on the roster.


If Lindholm becomes a centre and there are no moves being made, I do not want Bennett to be the 4th line centre. He isn't going to develop much in that position.


Gaudreau - Monahan - Dube

Tkachuk - Lindholm - Mangiapane
Bennett - Backlund - Leivo
Lucic - Ryan - X (whichever earns that spot)



Switch around all the RW'ers until there is a combo that works. Backlund still gets all the tough assignments, but Lindholm takes SOME of them as well, leaving the Gaudreau-Monahan pairing with the bulk of the offensive zone starts. Ryan's line is also more than capable defensively as well, and should be better this season with whomever the new addition will be on that line. They can definitely go up against solid lines and help with shutting down - Lucic is good defensively.


I think the Flames have a lot of flexibility in their line-up. I actually think that there is more flexibility now than ever. I would rather keep the centres as they are now - Monahan, Backlund, Bennett, Ryan - but a Lindholm that isn't so focused on defence and buried in zone starts might work out as a centre too. If so, I am all for it, as I think "Pairings" on forwards is more important than having 3 guys with chemistry.

[Knut]

The way I look at Bennett is to forget his draft position. If Flames drafted him in the second round that year would we be happy with what he brings ?

I would say so.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by Buzzard

I like Bennett. A lot. Especially when he's on, but his penchant for taking brutal penalties often at the worst time, is enough to suggest to me he doesn't have high end hockey sense. That's one of the few things Bennett is consistent at.

Does anyone have detailed penalty stats (by zone, by type, etc.)? I'm genuinely curious how much of this is just overblown confirmation bias at this point for Bennett.

[Fan69]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

Does anyone have detailed penalty stats (by zone, by type, etc.)? I'm genuinely curious how much of this is just overblown confirmation bias at this point for Bennett.

My bet? About 80 percent.
Trade him we will live to regret it unless something spectacular comes back. He is 23 people, just entering his prime.

[MrMike]

Originally Posted by Fan69

My bet? About 80 percent.
Trade him we will live to regret it unless something spectacular comes back. He is 23 people, just entering his prime.

Exactly, the only way I would trade him is being a piece in a package to get a top center/maybe RW

[TOfan]

The question I have for Bennett supporters is how valid is the argument that Bennett’s lack of success is tied to his line mates or simply not being put in the position to succeed?

Bennett entered the league in the same relative time as others who have developed under similar circumstances. Gaudreau, Monahan, Tkachuk, Mangiapane, Anderson, and soon Dude & Valamaki I would wager. Sam came from the exact same environment as these other players and has been passed by all of them, I would say. It’s not like the Flames don’t know how to develop players. They’ve been pretty proficient at it recently.

So why has Sam had his head held below the water? Why is Sam the victim here? Or is it that he hasn’t grasped the role or what it is the organization has told him he needs to do to be successful? And not just for 10 games in the playoffs, but what he needs to do for 70-82 games a year.

If anything, I would say the Flames want him to succeed, desperately.