Arena negotiation discussion. UPD: Flames release their proposal

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Barnes

I really wish Ken King would turn in his homework so we can get on with this. Shouldn't take this long.

Originally Posted by killer_carlson

Any word on when the Flames reveal their plan?

Originally Posted by Otto-matic

King made such a big deal about releasing the plan this week and so far bubkiss. Are they waiting for Friday so Nenshi/Co can't respond to it until the following week?

Why should it take any time at all? The City released their plan the next day on a one-page infographic.

What did the CSEC show City Council? Show us that. It should be done already, just release it.

Remember, the Flames wanted this. They're the ones that went Public, they're the ones that forced the City's hand, they're the ones that engaged the media. They should have been ready.

More amateur hour BS from CSEC.

What happened to these guys? They used to be one of the most tightly and Professionally Run Organizations around and right now they're a punchline.

[Makarov]

Originally Posted by Locke

Why should it take any time at all? The City released their plan the next day on a one-page infographic.

What did the CSEC show City Council? Show us that. It should be done already, just release it.

Remember, the Flames wanted this. They're the ones that went Public, they're the ones that forced the City's hand, they're the ones that engaged the media. They should have been ready.

More amateur hour BS from CSEC.

What happened to these guys? They used to be one of the most tightly and Professionally Run Organizations around and right now they're a punchline.

Exactly. I thought that one of the Flames' biggest complaints was that they received no response from the City to their latest proposal. If that is the case, they should release exactly what they proposed to the City. One expects that should be a matter of minutes, not days or weeks. I mean, it should just be sitting in a network folder somewhere.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Makarov

Exactly. I thought that one of the Flames' biggest complaints was that they received no response from the City to their latest proposal. If that is the case, they should release exactly what they proposed to the City. One expects that should be a matter of minutes, not days or weeks. I mean, it should just be sitting in a network folder somewhere.

Precisely.

Making us wait for it isnt making us more anxious to see it, it just makes us more suspicious that they're changing it.

They made a proposal to the City. I dont give half a crap if it was on the back of a napkin, they must have shown them something. Take a photo of it, whatever, just release it. Now.

Calling out the other side of the negotiation and they show their cards and then you take a week or so, so your cards are ready, looks so bad.

Its a basic premise of media relations. Hey, how about Ken King, does he know anything about Media? I thought he was in that industry for a bit.

He was? No way...

[iggy_oi]

It's almost as if the flames aren't being 100% honest with the public...Almost

[JerryUnderscore]

Originally Posted by Locke

Precisely.

Making us wait for it isnt making us more anxious to see it, it just makes us more suspicious that they're changing it.

They made a proposal to the City. I dont give half a crap if it was on the back of a napkin, they must have shown them something. Take a photo of it, whatever, just release it. Now.

Calling out the other side of the negotiation and they show their cards and then you take a week or so, so your cards are ready, looks so bad.

Its a basic premise of media relations. Hey, how about Ken King, does he know anything about Media? I thought he was in that industry for a bit.

He was? No way...

Ken King commented that the last meeting they had was on July 31st.

Part of me has wondered if that meeting was called by the city to offer a proposal and the Flames simply chose not to respond. That way King could coming out and say "We haven't met since July! Clearly these meetings aren't going anywhere."

Based on how both the city and CSEC have handled things in the last few weeks there's one party I tend to blame for the "spectacularly unproductive" meetings more than the other.

[Hot_Flatus]

Originally Posted by calf

I'm thinking that after putting together the summary, they realized they couldn't give a good answer to the question "is this a fair deal".

These egomaniacs once again misjudged the general public's reaction and assumed all would line up to grovel at their feet for fear of losing their precious Flames.

The massive backlash against Mayor Nenshi they were trying to create has literally blown up in their faces. Now they are all eating crow in their ivory tower knowing that whatever they release is only going to make them look exponentially worse than they did a week ago.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by JerryUnderscore

Ken King commented that the last meeting they had was on July 31st.

Part of me has wondered if that meeting was called by the city to offer a proposal and the Flames simply chose not to respond. That way King could coming out and say "We haven't met since July! Clearly these meetings aren't going anywhere."

Based on how both the city and CSEC have handled things in the last few weeks there's one party I tend to blame for the "spectacularly unproductive" meetings more than the other.

Heres my issue:

I have a really hard time believing that these guys are genuinely this stupid or incompetent. I really do.

For the longest time I liked and respected Ken King but I feel like I'm being backed into a corner here.

And where I'm really struggling is that I have no idea why.

They are bungling the simplest of tasks. This is like 'Earnest Scared Stupid.'

What the hell is going on?

[longsuffering]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Actually very much in debate



http://calgaryherald.com/news/politi...w-does-it-work

So not unique at all to the discussion in Calgary.

But please drop the kool aid stuff, that is such a weak way of saying don't any one disagree with my opinion because it's right!

Its not that I believe I am right as much as I am surprised that otherwise level headed people seem willing to accept arguments from the Flames side that they would never support if it were another business.

No one cares what the opportunity costs is for another business, not Apple, not an airline, not a department store, not a coffee shop, not Husky Oil, but somehow many argue that the Flames are entitled to maximize their revenues, so that means the ticket tax is their revenue.

Real world comparables are just tossed aside " because Flames".

I am baffled.


Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

[Flash Walken]

If this was the start of the negotiation, I too would be taking a 'wait and see' approach before determining one sides credibility over the other.

However, we are now a decade into this process, where the side doing almost all of the talking has ended up delivering the least.

This isn't really a scenario where the truth is somewhere in the middle.

At some point it is goofy to suggest this is part of some 4 dimensional game plan. It's straight incompetence at this point, and I don't hold much hope that after spending 10 years selling magic beans that the Flames are going to reveal their beanstalk in the form of some powerpoint presentation.

Eventually, you either stop believing snake oil salesmen or count yourself amongst the rubes.

[MRCboicgy]

Originally Posted by Locke

This is like 'Earnest Scared Stupid.'

Vern?

[Hot_Flatus]

Originally Posted by Locke

Heres my issue:

I have a really hard time believing that these guys are genuinely this stupid or incompetent. I really do.

For the longest time I liked and respected Ken King but I feel like I'm being backed into a corner here.

And where I'm really struggling is that I have no idea why.

They are bungling the simplest of tasks. This is like 'Earnest Scared Stupid.'

What the hell is going on?

It's the perfect example of what goes on in much of the business world everyday. The Flames are not the exception, they are merely the norm.

e.g: 'Joe Smith' is brought in from elsewhere with no experience in the sporting profession instead of snapping up the more qualified candidate from elsewhere. Smith then hires a series of cronies, lackeys and other yes men to fall in line that also have little to no expertise in any of the necessary avenues required of the industry at times like this.

Trouble eventually arises and the overworked and underpaid sole contributors are left swinging in the wind, unable to produce mundane documents that should be readily available due to complete lack of leadership and knowledge from above.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by longsuffering

Its not that I believe I am right as much as I am surprised that otherwise level headed people seem willing to accept arguments from the Flames side that they would never support if it were another business.

You just can't help yourself I guess

Now to disagree with you is to be less than level headed.

Keep on digging.

[taxbuster]

Originally Posted by Bingo

My dad once told me to make sure I removed the 5% from my bill before I did my tip calculation. I laughed. He was puzzled. I said dad 5% on a $100 bill is $5 of which you are likely only going to tip 5% anyway. You just saved yourself 25 cents!

Or just tip 3x the GST......

[nik-]

This thread needs trigger warnings.

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by Bingo

You just can't help yourself I guess

Now to disagree with you is to be less than level headed.

Keep on digging.

Now you're just being antagonistic read what he said again...

Its not that I believe I am right as much as I am surprised that otherwise level headed people seem willing to accept arguments from the Flames side that they would never support if it were another business.

He's saying that someone effectively disagreeing with themselves is being less than level headed. Which strikes me as being a true statement.

[JerryUnderscore]

Originally Posted by Locke

Heres my issue:

I have a really hard time believing that these guys are genuinely this stupid or incompetent. I really do.

For the longest time I liked and respected Ken King but I feel like I'm being backed into a corner here.

And where I'm really struggling is that I have no idea why.

They are bungling the simplest of tasks. This is like 'Earnest Scared Stupid.'

What the hell is going on?

I feel the same, minus the longtime respect for King.

I doubt people who have made millions in their respective industries could be this inept but King doesn't seem like he's thinking 10 steps ahead of everyone else either.

The only explanation I can think of is that the Flames believe most Calgarians have more brand loyalty than they do.

Either that or they assume in a world where Donald Trump is president, anything is possible.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Parallex

Now you're just being antagonistic read what he said again...



He's saying that someone effectively disagreeing with themselves is being less than level headed. Which strikes me as being a true statement.

I think those that need to label people that disagree with them are being more antagonistic.

People seem to jump from an opinion on the definition of the tax, to supporting the owners on a blank cheque scale.

I see the ticket tax and bite out of the Flames upside on ticket prices, something they will desperately need if they go ahead and build this building. It's an issue.

I'm not bringing other business into it because frankly no other business would operate like this. To me the building shouldn't be built at all as I don't think this city can afford it.

[Roughneck]

Originally Posted by New Era

That is the importance of the arena to the successful implementation of the district.

You're simply not getting it.

The arena isn't factored into the East Village development, and never has been.

It is a district that was developed independent of an arena, and THAT is why it isn't anything like what Edmonton was facing.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by longsuffering

Its not that I believe I am right as much as I am surprised that otherwise level headed people seem willing to accept arguments from the Flames side that they would never support if it were another business.

No one cares what the opportunity costs is for another business, not Apple, not an airline, not a department store, not a coffee shop, not Husky Oil, but somehow many argue that the Flames are entitled to maximize their revenues, so that means the ticket tax is their revenue.

Real world comparables are just tossed aside " because Flames".

I am baffled.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

It's because you keep believing that this is a Tax. It isn't. It is a method to circumvent HRR.

[Roughneck]

Originally Posted by GGG

It's because you keep believe that this is a Tax. It isn't. It is a method to circumvent HRR.

It's more of a way to secure a loan that may or may not be "co-signed" by someone else (like the government), while being able to circumvent HRR.