Arena negotiation discussion. UPD: Flames release their proposal

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by corporatejay

I just can't see these guys wanting to become Villains after all the good they have done for the city.


https://www.nhl.com/flames/team/owners

You can't honestly say that you can't see N. Murray Edwards menacingly stroking a Persian Cat from his tax sheltered faux-home/evil lair on the Isle of Man (or wherever).

But I'll grant you the others. They seem like guys who would hate having their names spat in public disgust.

[IgiTang]

As a life long Flames fan, this whole situation makes me sick. As a Calgarian born and raised and the amount of defending our city and team when it comes to hockey over the last 28 years, I’m just sickened. The thought of the team moving just leaves me absolutely empty.

Those of you saying they will just give stop payin attention until the front office figures it out is, in my opinion, part of the problem.

If fans turn a blind eye and don’t support the team with their dollars and raising awareness amongst friends and community, acting like you don’t care so to speak, is part of the problem. Not part of the solution.

Those thinking that this is all smoke and mirrors, think again. Losing this team is a very big reality. And I’m not ok with that. As a fan base we need find a way to to make it loud and clear that it is not okay if the Flames move.

This would never have been a possibility if Harley or Doc were around. And the fact that this team was a major part of their life’s work, they would be so utterly disappointed in all parties who are travelling down this road..

Just disgusting.

[Toonage]

If all those scratch & win tickets I bought 15 years ago were for nothing I'm going to be pissed.

[Tiger]

Originally Posted by IgiTang

As a life long Flames fan, this whole situation makes me sick. As a Calgarian born and raised and the amount of defending our city and team when it comes to hockey over the last 28 years, I’m just sickened. The thought of the team moving just leaves me absolutely empty.

Those of you saying they will just give stop payin attention until the front office figures it out is, in my opinion, part of the problem.

If fans turn a blind eye and don’t support the team with their dollars and raising awareness amongst friends and community, acting like you don’t care so to speak, is part of the problem. Not part of the solution.

Those thinking that this is all smoke and mirrors, think again. Losing this team is a very big reality. And I’m not ok with that. As a fan base we need find a way to to make it loud and clear that it is not okay if the Flames move.

This would never have been a possibility if Harley or Doc were around. And the fact that this team was a major part of their life’s work, they would be so utterly disappointed in all parties who are travelling down this road..

Just disgusting.

the relocation fee would be almost as high as building an arena. Likely they would be moving to a lesser market. They have to pay to leave almost as much to stay, so it seems a very hollow threat.

[stone hands]

Originally Posted by karl262

If it's not a threat, but simply stating facts that the team will end up in another city and country without a new arena, you say let them go?

i do anyways

[N-E-B]

I have a feeling that every last one of you would be crushed and would immediately want the Flames back if they left. The people saying they're fine with the Flames leaving are full of crap.

I don't think they're going to leave, but I don't believe for a second that any of you would be okay with them leaving.

[IgiTang]

Originally Posted by Toonage

If all those scratch & win tickets I bought 15 years ago were for nothing I'm going to be pissed.

Lol.. different times, different situation. That lottery was pushed by Bettman and the league to generate dollars to help support both the Oilers and the Flames so they would remain in Alberta. They weren’t for nothing, they were to support your team. Kudos!

Now it’s time for fans to support their team in others ways so that they avoid losing THEIR team. If you don’t want to support your Flames, that’s cool. Exit stage left.

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by IgiTang

As a fan base we need find a way to to make it loud and clear that it is not okay if the Flames move.

... yeah no. That's the kind of thinking that has allowed these #######s (Pro-sports franchise owners in general) to extort many billions of dollars from ordinary working people over the last few decades.

I'm sorry but if it's the position of the owners that we have to give them the laughably one-sided bad deal that Edmonton gave the Oilers (and more!) "or else"... I'll take the "or else".

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Originally Posted by N-E-B

I have a feeling that every last one of you would be crushed and would immediately want the Flames back if they left. The people saying they're fine with the Flames leaving are full of crap.

I don't think they're going to leave, but I don't believe for a second that any of you would be okay with them leaving.

You say that like this is happening in a vacuum. You're leaving out the important part about the Flames holding us and our city hostage if we don't give them hundreds of millions of dollars.

We aren't ok with the Flames just randomly leaving. That would upset a lot of people. But if it's screw over our city, take money away from roads and schools and other far more important programs so our greedy dbag owner can line his pockets while he hides like the POS he is in a tax haven, then yeah, screw the Flames. I will never support handouts to greedy rich aholes so they can extort money from me.

[IgiTang]

Originally Posted by Parallex

... yeah no. That's the kind of thinking that has allowed these #######s (Pro-sports franchise owners in general) to extort many billions of dollars from ordinary working people over the last few decades.

I'm sorry but if it's the position of the owners that we have to give them the laughably one-sided bad deal that Edmonton gave the Oilers (and more!) "or else"... I'll take the "or else".

Society has already said it’s acceptable. If you have ever spent a dime on a pro-sport item or ticket, you have already said that it’s ok for these billionaires to continue to profit at extreme rates via their franchises. To say “No” now is simply
Hypocrisy.

Out here on the island I see tons of “No LNG” signs for the coastal communities but they all have LNG running to their house. I see this as a similar hypocrisy.

This kind of money from tax payers is going to get gouged by the Municipality, Province and Feds anyway.. to think that if your dollar doesn’t go to the Flames that that’s where it ends. But that’s naive, your dollars are going to be gouged by a tax in some way or another. Perhaps a useless blue ring or a facility that a very small number of the population uses. Someway or another your dollars are going to leave your pocket without you having much of a say in the matter.
Why not have it be for something you claim you love? Like Calgary Flames Hockey?

[Table 5]

Originally Posted by N-E-B

I have a feeling that every last one of you would be crushed and would immediately want the Flames back if they left. The people saying they're fine with the Flames leaving are full of crap.

If I was still 10, I'd be crushed. As an adult, I think I can all look at the big picture a bit more rationally. Yeah, it would be unfortunate to lose an NHL team, but the levels of extortion that pro franchises expect from the public are no longer worth it. It's especially true for a city like Calgary whose economic future is on shaky ground, and needs to be more prudent than ever with it's money.

If the Flames leave this city, you can put the blame squarely on a poorly run NHL and the Flames greedy ownership group. The fans of this city do more than their fair share of supporting the club.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Parallex

... yeah no. That's the kind of thinking that has allowed these #######s (Pro-sports franchise owners in general) to extort many billions of dollars from ordinary working people over the last few decades.

I'm sorry but if it's the position of the owners that we have to give them the laughably one-sided bad deal that Edmonton gave the Oilers (and more!) "or else"... I'll take the "or else".

Speak for yourself. In the big picture the team means more to this city than most would admit. I don't think people appreciate how having a team takes away some of the dreariness of a Canadian winter. There's a reason Winnipeg got a team back and the fans have never supported the team better as they know what it was like to not have a team.

[N-E-B]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

You say that like this is happening in a vacuum. You're leaving out the important part about the Flames holding us and our city hostage if we don't give them hundreds of millions of dollars.

We aren't ok with the Flames just randomly leaving. That would upset a lot of people. But if it's screw over our city, take money away from roads and schools and other far more important programs so our greedy dbag owner can line his pockets while he hides like the POS he is in a tax haven, then yeah, screw the Flames. I will never support handouts to greedy rich aholes so they can extort money from me.

I agree whole-heartedly with that, but I don't believe the people proudly trotting the "let them leave I don't care" mantra. If the Flames leaving is what has to happen then so be it, but nobody would be happy with that result. It's really a lose-lose scenario right now. Either give in and get screwed or the team leaves. That doesn't make me happy, and I don't want either outcome.

[Strange Brew]

The owners aren't moving the team to Houston. If they want out of the hockey business, well then there is a prospective buyer in Houston. But there are many reasons why the league doesn't want to see an otherwise healthy franchise moved.

For the NHL, the dream scenario is one of the perpetual money losing franchises sells to Fertitta who takes them to Houston. Sales price established near $500 million and then Seattle granted expansion team at the $500 million expansion fee.

[GioforPM]

Do I want the deal that the Flames have offered? Nope. Do I think that any amount of un-repaid public money is too much? Nope.

Am I offended that a business that isn't getting a deal that it likes is looking at other options? No. That is pretty normal. And if negotiations are tough, what other leverage point does CSEG really have?

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

The owners aren't moving the team to Houston. If they want out of the hockey business, well then there is a prospective buyer in Houston. But there are many reasons why the league doesn't want to see an otherwise healthy franchise moved.

For the NHL, the dream scenario is one of the perpetual money losing franchises sells to Fertitta who takes them to Houston. Sales price established near $500 million and then Seattle granted expansion team at the $500 million expansion fee.

Of course a sale is what would be done. I think for most people "moving the team" just means moving the franchise, not with the same ownership.

[Table 5]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Speak for yourself. In the big picture the team means more to this city than most would admit. I don't think people appreciate how having a team takes away some of the dreariness of a Canadian winter. There's a reason Winnipeg got a team back and the fans have never supported the team better as they know what it was like to not have a team.

I don't think anyone denies that NHL hockey adds to the betterment of life for a lot (but not all) people in our city. The problem lies in the expectation of that enjoyment being subsidized by the Public and non-hockey fans. A large part of the population they are trying to squeeze are the same ones who can't afford their product.

There's nothing wrong with charging hockey/Flames fans more to keep the product. It's when you want everyone else to subsidize it (and at the expense of other public services), that's when the problems start. Especially when it's a for profit business and especially at the salaries of it's employees.

[IgiTang]

The FOI chapter of CP would seize to exist and thus discountinuing some of the harsh crap on this board forcing the bullies on CP to find another way to try and make themselves relevant by invading other communities, online or out in the public.

Having the Flames in Calgary and subsequently CP/FOI is actually a public service and a good for the city by giving the aggressors somewhere to unleash their aggression in a safe nd somewhat controlled manner.

I’m concerned for other communities if let’s say “the Scorpion” tried to become part of their community and didn’t quite understand his desire to be “the guy” and met resistance. (For clarity I’m kidding around about the Scorpion comment, but maybe not so much about the rest of it. Some of you folks are on the edge with the 1000 meter stare)

[Snuffleupagus]

Like it or not the minute the city of Edmonton bowed to Katz negotiations between the Flames and Calgary were in big trouble, why on earth would Murray offer a "fair" deal after that robbery 200 miles north?

[Loyal and True]

Originally Posted by Tiger

the relocation fee would be almost as high as building an arena. Likely they would be moving to a lesser market. They have to pay to leave almost as much to stay, so it seems a very hollow threat.

Ownership will SELL the team to new owners not RELOCATE. Houston/Seattle whoever will gladly pay Flames owners for the franchise, and pay relocation fees (to NHL) to bring NHL to their own markets and fill their newer building for another 45 nights a year.

Flames owners are entitled to sell off their asset. They carried losses for a long time before salary cap etc.

They make way more money in their other businesses. Flames will continue in Calgary as long as the community (including city) supports it. But if there isn't enough support then owners will sell it off. A lot of people think this is a big bluff, but I don't.

Now, does anyone think another ownership group in Calgary would be dumb enough to outbid Seattle/Houston/whoever with a 40 year old Saddledome?
All while the community's most outspoken seem to resent owners/players for being billionaires/millionaires while Calgary's roads are simultaneously in disrepair?

And... .after the NHL is gone the city will still end up needing to spend millions in order to build (and maintain annually) an entertainment centre of some sort for a city of this size.