NHL network top 20 (25) centres

[Groot]

Originally Posted by VilleN

That’s a pretty narrow definition of what a centre is. Is that the only metric you are using to make that statement?

That's the only metric I was using to make a joke about McDavid, yes.

[Redrum]

Originally Posted by agulati

I think the anti-McDavid bias is significantly showing. Oilers suck and probably are going to continue doing so, but McDavid is a Top 2 center in the league today, and there is little to no debate on that.

I don't think anyone was actually saying he wasn't, more just making E=NG posts.

[djsFlames]

McDavid is an average or below center in his own zone and takes half as many draws as other 1Cs and is below average at that.

Crosby excelling at both of those aspects of the game and his winning acumen should probablg put him ahead. I see Connor as a really really strong single dimensional player, but that doesn't win you a lot of games as evidence has shown so far in his career. Maybe Tippett gets him to be more responsible but seeing how top players are not held accountable in Edmonton by the org or media I don't see him rounding out his game like Crosby has any time soon.

[Winsor_Pilates]

Monahan at 19 is about right IMO.
He's top 15 in points but lower then that by pretty much every other criteria you'd measure a centre, so around 19 seems to be the balance of things.

I can see him moving up that list only if he solidifies those other areas of his game and moving down(off) the list if he doesn't. It's time for him to adapt his game and show that next level.

[GullFoss]

Everyone on this list but Monahan does at least two of three things: puts up big points, drives play, two way play.

Too 20 centers who do all three: Crosby, Aho, barkov
Guys who drive play and have two way games: beegeron, O'Reilly
Guys who drive play and put up big points: all other centers on this list except Monahan
Guys who put up big points only: Monahan

The reason Monahan isn't a true number one center is because he doesn't drive play. In terms of play driving ability on the flames:
1) johnny
2) Tkachuk
3) backlund
4) Lindholm
5) monahan

He's a number 1 and he works well with Johnny. But it would be great to have a center that is elite at driving play.

[VilleN]

Originally Posted by Groot

That's the only metric I was using to make a joke about McDavid, yes.

Didn’t realize you were making a joke...

[Groot]

Originally Posted by VilleN

Didn’t realize you were making a joke...

...do you feel better now that I clarified?

[Monahammer]

Originally Posted by GullFoss

Everyone on this list but Monahan does at least two of three things: puts up big points, drives play, two way play.

Too 20 centers who do all three: Crosby, Aho, barkov
Guys who drive play and have two way games: beegeron, O'Reilly
Guys who drive play and put up big points: all other centers on this list except Monahan
Guys who put up big points only: Monahan

The reason Monahan isn't a true number one center is because he doesn't drive play. In terms of play driving ability on the flames:
1) johnny
2) Tkachuk
3) backlund
4) Lindholm
5) monahan

He's a number 1 and he works well with Johnny. But it would be great to have a center that is elite at driving play.

I challenge you to prove that he doesn't do either of these with proof. His two way play gets much more downplayed around here, and he does carry the puck more often than people give him credit for. He plays with johnny and johnny is better at it.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

I challenge you to prove that he doesn't do either of these with proof. His two way play gets much more downplayed around here, and he does carry the puck more often than people give him credit for. He plays with johnny and johnny is better at it.

"Driving play" is, I think, a misunderstood concept. Monahan carries out of the zone and at least partly through the neutral zone a fair bit and then makes a smart, but simple, pass. In fact, I would guess he starts the play more often than not, since Johnny flies the zone so often.

[djsFlames]

The "haters" wont be satisfied unless Monahan is skating circles around the o-zone and dangling through multiple defending players and shooting from every place like MacKinnon did when he was playing possessed. That's how people like to conjure up "driving play" in their minds.

Theres only a small handful of NHLers that carry teams on their back like that and are able to get away with it in that fashion (due to immense speed and skill).

Funny enough, the flames have one of them. He was unfortunately just playing some of his most frustrated hockey going into the post season.

[TheScorpion]

Here are some side-by-side comparisons that I found interesting:



Monahan drives offensive play at a much better rate than Ryan O'Reilly, who outclasses him defensively (but hey, he's not the Selke winner for no reason). Monahan is more proficient offensively than O'Reilly, with similar numbers in shot assists (passes that set up shots) but much better numbers for zone entries.

Here's the 1C from another recent SCF team:



Monahan is as good or much better at driving play in basically every way.



Once again, very comparable offensively, but in this case, Monahan is much, much better at generating plays from the defensive zone.



The much more experienced Giroux is slightly better at driving play in the offensive zone and at breaking out from the defensive zone, but it's not a league of difference by any means.



This is the best comparable, I think. Both players have displayed killer instincts in the playoffs in the past, and both players drive play at an almost identical rate in the offensive zone, with Monahan faring ever-so-slightly better. But Monahan's two-way play is substantially better than Couture's, here. He generates breakouts at a substantially higher rate.

Monahan is not some sad-sack outlier who refuses to drive play while all of his peers outclass him in that regard. Just simply stating that he "doesn't drive play" without citing any reasons for why isn't a compelling argument. Monahan is part of a very vast tier of centremen who are a shade below the elites (Crosby/Malkin, McDavid, Aho, Scheifele, MacKinnon) but who still can drive play very well and put up big numbers.

And it's not like the Flames are stuck in neutral until they find a better centre, because Gaudreau is one of the very, very best play-drivers in the entire NHL, up there with all of the guys listed in the elite tier above.

[Dajazz]

Holy duck Monahan is underrated.

Does the detractors not watch him play?

He lead the team in take aways. He’s very sound positionally and has a quiet, effective 3 zone play. He is usually the one starting the attack with a smart pass to his wingers who are better at zone entry (specifically Johnny).

As for the list. If I was asked to make a SC winning team today it would be hard to convince me NOT to pick Bergeron. Him or Crosby.

[Dajazz]

Double post

[VilleN]

Originally Posted by Groot

...do you feel better now that I clarified?

No, I don’t get the joke.

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

Here are some side-by-side comparisons that I found interesting:



Monahan drives offensive play at a much better rate than Ryan O'Reilly, who outclasses him defensively (but hey, he's not the Selke winner for no reason). Monahan is more proficient offensively than O'Reilly, with similar numbers in shot assists (passes that set up shots) but much better numbers for zone entries.

Here's the 1C from another recent SCF team:



Monahan is as good or much better at driving play in basically every way.



Once again, very comparable offensively, but in this case, Monahan is much, much better at generating plays from the defensive zone.



The much more experienced Giroux is slightly better at driving play in the offensive zone and at breaking out from the defensive zone, but it's not a league of difference by any means.



This is the best comparable, I think. Both players have displayed killer instincts in the playoffs in the past, and both players drive play at an almost identical rate in the offensive zone, with Monahan faring ever-so-slightly better. But Monahan's two-way play is substantially better than Couture's, here. He generates breakouts at a substantially higher rate.

Monahan is not some sad-sack outlier who refuses to drive play while all of his peers outclass him in that regard. Just simply stating that he "doesn't drive play" without citing any reasons for why isn't a compelling argument. Monahan is part of a very vast tier of centremen who are a shade below the elites (Crosby/Malkin, McDavid, Aho, Scheifele, MacKinnon) but who still can drive play very well and put up big numbers.

And it's not like the Flames are stuck in neutral until they find a better centre, because Gaudreau is one of the very, very best play-drivers in the entire NHL, up there with all of the guys listed in the elite tier above.

Was Peters simply out coached in the Colorado series? All he had to do was match up Monahan to neutralize Mackinnon?

Seriously these analysis are so very much based on usage and style of game. Nashville is comfortable winning games without Johansen scoring a ppg. Over the time period that Monahan dominated Johansen in the stats comparison Nashville won 141 games and 23 playoff games and the Flames won 132 games and 1 playoff game.

There is a reason that Johansen got an 8x8 deal 2 seasons ago.

[Fan69]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

Here are some side-by-side comparisons that I found interesting:



Monahan drives offensive play at a much better rate than Ryan O'Reilly, who outclasses him defensively (but hey, he's not the Selke winner for no reason). Monahan is more proficient offensively than O'Reilly, with similar numbers in shot assists (passes that set up shots) but much better numbers for zone entries.

Here's the 1C from another recent SCF team:



Monahan is as good or much better at driving play in basically every way.



Once again, very comparable offensively, but in this case, Monahan is much, much better at generating plays from the defensive zone.



The much more experienced Giroux is slightly better at driving play in the offensive zone and at breaking out from the defensive zone, but it's not a league of difference by any means.



This is the best comparable, I think. Both players have displayed killer instincts in the playoffs in the past, and both players drive play at an almost identical rate in the offensive zone, with Monahan faring ever-so-slightly better. But Monahan's two-way play is substantially better than Couture's, here. He generates breakouts at a substantially higher rate.

Monahan is not some sad-sack outlier who refuses to drive play while all of his peers outclass him in that regard. Just simply stating that he "doesn't drive play" without citing any reasons for why isn't a compelling argument. Monahan is part of a very vast tier of centremen who are a shade below the elites (Crosby/Malkin, McDavid, Aho, Scheifele, MacKinnon) but who still can drive play very well and put up big numbers.

And it's not like the Flames are stuck in neutral until they find a better centre, because Gaudreau is one of the very, very best play-drivers in the entire NHL, up there with all of the guys listed in the elite tier above.

Very well said.
Another thing that drives me crazy is the well he plays with johnny like other top centers arent playing with great wingers or something.

Totally agree with your comparative assessment against other centers as well.
A lot of people seem to value players like so.

" well our player isnt as good as ( insert any of the top 3 players at that position over the last 2 decades) so we'll never win a cup with him"

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by Fan69

Very well said.
Another thing that drives me crazy is the well he plays with johnny like other top centers arent playing with great wingers or something.


" well our player isnt as good as ( insert any of the top 3 players at that position over the last 2 decades) so we'll never win a cup with him"

I do not think that anyone has said that so far. Monahan is a very good hockey player. The expectations that that he will be a dominant guy who carries the team in critical games against elite opposition have dissipated.

There would be no reservations about his contributions to winning a SC on team that had sufficient other players to do the heavy dirty work and let him focus on his tremendous offensive skills.

The Flames tried Brouwer, Neal and now Lucic to cover the part of the game that it not part or Monahan's skill set. But then they fill the rest of the forward group with smaller non-physical players that leave Monahan's non-physical play exposed to analysis and criticism.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

Was Peters simply out coached in the Colorado series? All he had to do was match up Monahan to neutralize Mackinnon?

Seriously these analysis are so very much based on usage and style of game. Nashville is comfortable winning games without Johansen scoring a ppg. Over the time period that Monahan dominated Johansen in the stats comparison Nashville won 141 games and 23 playoff games and the Flames won 132 games and 1 playoff game.

There is a reason that Johansen got an 8x8 deal 2 seasons ago.

Because Johansen was the sole reason Nashville was a winning team over the last 3 seasons. The fact they had a great D corps, Pekka Rinne (with a good backup), Forsberg, Arvidsson, etc. never factored in.

[dino7c]

I was being sarcastic...Mony is a #1 center all day long

[sa226]

Monahan has all the tools to be a top flight #1 centre, without the recent blemishes on his record.

We all know its a knee jerk reaction to trade him, like was suggested immediately post playoffs. I think the organization has recognized they need him to reach another level, not coast along as the player he is right now. Thankfully he's at the perfect stage in his career to add elements to his game.

He's not going to start throwing his body around, thats not his game and it never will be. But he's a big guy. He's really bulked up even since his back injuries. He needs to learn to lean, and lean hard on guys. Like the Thornton's, the Getzlafs and the Kopitars. None of those guys have the low centre of gravity, so they have to use their size to their advantage. When Jagr was here, he should have been working every day with Monahan.

As well, I don't know how he finds it, but he needs to learn to find that extra gear X factor when the games get tough. It comes naturally to some guys, like MacKinnon did against us. Like Iginla did in his heyday. But Monahan needs to learn it.

I think he said this season, post Allstar game that he lost a lot of his confidence and it put him in a funk. This happens to probably everyone at some point, but in the stretch drive thats concerning for your top center.

I really think Monahan has the ability to reach that next level, not just a regular season reliable stat machine. The team needs to work with him to accomplish that. Without being too melodramatic, I think the success of this iteration of the franchise depends on that. As St Louis proved, you don't necessarily need a Crosby or Malkin to win it all. But you still need more than what we've seen from Monahan thus far.