I don't know if Steven Avery is innocent. At all. At best I'd give it a coin flip. But the way the state, prosecution, and legal system acted is so beyond the pale the conviction should not stand. Taking away a persons freedom and for so long should require a basic code of ethics on the laws part, and it was trampled on by Kratz, and the corrupt (allegedly) Manitowac County "police". The tampering of the jury pool by Kratz, the same officers who framed him up the first time and being sued participating in the investigation... it's all so disgusting and something you'd expect from a 3rd world country where justice doesn't exist.
Even if you think Avery is 100% guilty by allowing the state to convict someone the way they did means everyones freedom is at risk.
I'm kind of in the same boat. I dont know about Avery, I agree that he may or not have done it, but how he was convicted and the subsequent actions of the legal system are very troubling and I really think thats what this documentary is about.
I dont care about Avery at all really. I just care about the fact that this guy got railroaded.
The point is, Avery is basically your average 'Everyman.'
Hes not perfect, he is not all that smart, hes made mistakes and committed crimes and done time, etc. But this is a whole other level.
Avery doesnt matter, what matters is how Avery got to where he is. There is a shocking disparity of power and authority within the Judicial system and Avery is a blatant example of that system not only ignoring that disparity but actively leaning on it regardless of all evidence to the contrary.
And whats really scary? The only people that seem to know whats going on are the lawyers not being paid by the Government.
For me the real criminality is Dassey.
There is no way that kid did anything. That kid couldnt make toast. The cops that got his confession should be fired or in jail themselves.
Again, I think the theme is the systemic abuse of power and the systemic culture of not only allowing that abuse but actually protecting the right of law enforcement/'justice' system the ability to abuse that power.
If no Judge wants to contravene another Judge or Law Enforcement officer then whats the point in having them? Police can do no wrong and their decisions should never be questioned and now we're living in PeachTrees and dealing with Judge Dredd.
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There is no way that kid did anything. That kid couldnt make toast. The cops that got his confession should be fired or in jail themselves.
Again, I think the theme is the systemic abuse of power and the systemic culture of not only allowing that abuse but actually protecting the right of law enforcement/'justice' system the ability to abuse that power.
If no Judge wants to contravene another Judge or Law Enforcement officer then whats the point in having them? Police can do no wrong and their decisions should never be questions and now we're living in PeachTrees and dealing with Judge Dredd.
I'm not as certain on Brendan. But his conviction, I will agree, is worse than Stevens. This obviously mentally delayed teenager was bullied into a confession by professionals who had NO reason to believe he was involved other than to help get Avery. The cops who did the interrogation should be in jail. What a disgrace to the justice system.
I'm not as certain on Brendan. But his conviction, I will agree, is worse than Stevens. This obviously mentally delayed teenager was bullied into a confession by professionals who had NO reason to believe he was involved other than to help get Avery. The cops who did the interrogation should be in jail. What a disgrace to the justice system.
Again, I think that the abuse of power by the 'legal and justice' systems is the ultimate theme of this documentary. Avery and Dassey aside what is trying to be conveyed here is how much power can be wielded against average citizens based on little to no evidence.
And that is terrifying.
I would love to watch this series with MBates, I imagine that the TV would not survive the ordeal and I wouldnt blame him one bit.
I'm no lawyer but I've had far more than my fair share of 'You have got to be F'in kidding me!!!' moments while watching this.
Again, its not about Avery or Dassey, its about what the Legal system can get away with.
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The Confession Tapes on Netflix shows many instances where older, much more intelligent people than Dassey confess to terrible crimes they did not commit. The idea that these courts hide behind past precedence in order to refuse to throw out Dassey's conviction and ignore all the developments in social sciences maddening.
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The Confession Tapes on Netflix shows many instances where older, much more intelligent people than Dassey confess to terrible crimes they did not commit. The idea that these courts hide behind past precedence in order to refuse to throw out Dassey's conviction and ignore all the developments in social sciences maddening.
Because we're supposed to trust Police and the Legal System.
What we're being shown is that we absolutely shouldnt.
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The best thing this documentary has done is demonstrate to people plainly why they should never, ever, talk to the police. Ask for a lawyer, and shut up. If they keep talking, ask for your lawyer again. Dassey mother probably knows by now how badly she ####ed up by letting her kid talk to the cops. What a terrible decision she has to live with now.
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It is ironic that you need legal protection from the police.
I am sort of in the same boat as other people. The thought of the"every man" that can be convicted on flimsy (as portrayed in the documentary) evidence or a questionable confession of a slow-witted high school kid is scary.
I can see why they're covering for each other, if the prosecution or the police become tainted by this, everythig they're touched in the past will be brought up again, which maybe it should be if these are the tactics they've used before.
I can only get inside my own head, but still if I had a mega settlement from the country for that previous wrongful conviction (Colborn should have been fired / jailed before he even had a chance to be part of the Halbach investigation), I would stay out of any trouble, and then with the money, just move somewhere else.
And what's with Bobby Dassey? He had child pornography found on his computer and he's still out there? How is he not in jail?
It is ironic that you need legal protection from the police.
I am sort of in the same boat as other people. The thought of the"every man" that can be convicted on flimsy (as portrayed in the documentary) evidence or a questionable confession of a slow-witted high school kid is scary.
I can see why they're covering for each other, if the prosecution or the police become tainted by this, everythig they're touched in the past will be brought up again, which maybe it should be if these are the tactics they've used before.
I can only get inside my own head, but still if I had a mega settlement from the country for that previous wrongful conviction (Colborn should have been fired / jailed before he even had a chance to be part of the Halbach investigation), I would stay out of any trouble, and then with the money, just move somewhere else.
And what's with Bobby Dassey? He had child pornography found on his computer and he's still out there? How is he not in jail?
And I think this is ultimately the concern.
That they've been lying and BSing and abusing their power for so long that if anything tugs at that thread the whole house of cards could come toppling down.
But if thats the case how much of the work that these people have done has been founded on lies? How many innocent people are in jail?
What really floors me is the clear and obvious abuses of power within the Justice System and the District Attorney 'investigates' and clears everyone of any wrong-doing? How the F?
This is how they have absolutely obliterated any trust between the Citizenry and Law Enforcement.
When you see things like riots and everything else you can clearly see that there is no respect for Law Enforcement, any and all Goodwill between these two parties is completely destroyed and then when you see things like this documentary you have to ask yourself:
"How can you blame them?"
When miscarriages of justice are so commonplace as to no longer be out of the ordinary how can you blame citizens for distrusting the Police?
And then you watch that youtube video (which I'm not done yet) and you cant even talk to the Police? There is a long and storied track record of Police pinning things on innocent people and its gotten so severe that you cant even speak to them without a lawyer, and it has to be a private lawyer! Because Public Defenders are associated with the Police and the Judges and might not have your best interest at heart.
So again, its not about Avery or Dassey but really how deep the corruption in the Justice system goes.
Its like a bad episode of 'The Office.' Nobody wants to say anything or step on anyone's toes because you have to work with them the next day.
And its systemic! It starts with the Cops, goes to the lawyers and prosecutors and goes all the way up to the Judges in the various different level of Courts.
Holy Hell! Somebody grow a pair of balls and step up and say something already!
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As circumstantial as it might be, the Bobby Dassey search history was pretty damning in my eyes. Put him up against Brendan and ask yourself which of them likely did it, both were on the scene.
Just finished. You guys have written it more extensively and eloquently than I am capable of right now. So I’ll just say “are you ####ing kidding me”. That all this new evidence can’t be weighed in the courts makes me so sad and angry right now.
I get that you can’t bog down the court system in endless frivolous appeals for all convictions. But are they really set up to throw the baby out with the bath water and protect terribly tried cases?
You know what this season got me kind of thinking? I get why Trump won. A big chunk of the MAGA crowd aren’t racist deplorables. Globalization has left them woefully behind and they’ve got no hope. If someone comes along and promises to give them their old ways of life back, even if those promises are obviously self-defeating and full of #### to the more - I hate to say it - educated, who cares if he admitted to grabbing women by the #####. What did they have to lose. That they’re getting used to enrich those they’re angry at just makes it all that much more sad.
A lot more family members joining the "cast" this year. Looking for their own 15 minutes of fame?
You have to remember that there's a large portion of the community that completely hate the Averys, in part because of the media. "Vile killer Brendan Dassey sentenced to life for the horrendous rape and killing" would have been the exact type of thing that would have been on the TV when they last made the documentary. Reporters would have been hounded them to ask "How does it feel knowing your cousin, brother, uncle, stepson, etc. did this?"
It's pretty easy to see why someone would want to just stay away from a camera crew who's intention you didn't know about. They had no idea the type of documentary that was going to air years later. Keeping a low-profile and not get your life ruined because you support your family, or even are associated with them, seems perfectly reasonable. Especially when you've seen the rap sheet the Averys have. Both his brothers had been charged with sexual assault and domestic violence, including Earl sexually assauling his daughters (and Earl would be later caught videotaping children changing). Steven Avery had been accused of molesting his niece before any of this had happened, along with his other crimes, and of course he's estranged to his children who refuse to talk to him because he use to beat them and their mother. Scott beat his girlfriend.
At the time of the documentary the Averys were all blaming each other because, really, they are filled with terrible (or extremely disfunctioning) people.
But then Making a Murderer comes out a decade later and it's clearly biased in favour of the family, it make sense why you'd be okay having cameras follow you around.
Last edited by Oling_Roachinen; 11-05-2018 at 02:21 AM.
I noticed this as well. I think she has to because just like Avery's prior lawyers, you're arguing a tough case and sometimes its helpful to be able to fall back on:
"The prior people were idiots."
Jerry and Dean were not. But they still failed. So you take that failure and spin it as best you can right now. Because thats the state of affairs, whats happening 'right now.'
It's funny how the first season made it out to seem like Jerry and Dean were fighting an uphill corrupt battle while being extremely competent lawyers. And this season, at least the Steven Avery portion, was all about how completely useless they looked. Just sort of goes to show how the biases of the 'documentary' can make a huge difference.
It wasn't even like they tried to make it seem like Jerry and Dean were limited. Sometimes they made a pretty good picture of them being incompetent, like not getting a blood spatter expert to discuss blood spattering...
You could almost do a new recut of the first season and make it out to look like both Brendan and Steven got incompetent lawyers and have these two new awesome ones. All the bias of the first season, all the evidence that was left out that got Steven Avery convicted (and was debunked, or attempted to be debunked by Zellner) would almost make for a more compelling story. Instead the series almost had to backtrack on it.
Last edited by Oling_Roachinen; 11-04-2018 at 10:38 PM.
Again, the innocence of Avery or Dassey notwithstanding theres a whole lot more going on now.
First of all, the computer with the porn searches. The fact that Kratz basically hid this from the Defense so as not to impugn the credibility of their primary witness just screams BS to me.
Bobby Dassey was the last person to see Halbach alive and he saw her leave the property alive and the Prosecution effectively says to him:
"You're the last person to see her alive, you never saw her leave the property alive and you'll testify to that effect or we release your internet search history."
And then Kratz telling the Defence that they dont want to bother admitting the results of the search of the computer into evidence because there wasnt anything there and misleading the Defence by erroneously labeling the evidence as 'Brendan's' rather than Bobby's.
Come on.
Of the last couple episodes I think the most moving and sincere and disturbing interview was with the former Manitowoc County Coroner.
Manitowoc County was prohibited from participating in the case due to their conflict of interest regarding Avery and his lawsuit.
Despite the fact that she, the County Coroner had nothing to do with any of it.
She was prevented from attending the crime scene. How? Her own Police threatened her. If she got involved in any way they threatened to arrest her.
Her own Police Department threatened to arrest her if she got involved in any way. She had to resign.
So there was no Coroner or Criminal Medical Professional on the scene for the first few days.
Presumably because they wanted to eliminate the possibility of contamination from the Manitowoc Country Sheriff's Department. Right?
Who found the key? Lenk and Colborne.
Who was hanging on to key pieces of evidence (Hard Drives)? Fassbender and Wiegert.
Oh yeah, way to stay out of the investigation boys. But the County Coroner was the problem...
Once again, I dont know if either of them did it, but man this is the most inept and corrupt investigation ever and they keep digging more holes, there is zero accountability and it goes all the way up.
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