The Stephan trial and evidence-based healthcare

[troutman]

Originally Posted by GGG

So what punishment does the least damage to the surviving children and still punishes the parents appropriately?

Children do get placed permanently with foster parents in serious cases of neglect.

[photon]

Originally Posted by Cyclops

Its because many doctors don't seem to care, in my opinion that is the reason for the rise of alternatives. My daughter was rushed to the hospital a couple years ago because she was prescribed something that she should not have been taking at her age. What kind of discipline was given to the doctor at the clinic which prescribed it to her? Nothing.....it's hard enough to file a complaint, but to expect anything to come from it is pointless.

A bit off topic but wasn't a doctor found guilty of billing dead patients for a year or 2? If I remember his licence was suspended for 6 months, that was it. Hard to have faith in these people.

Part of the reason is it's hard for them to care when they have to meet so many people in a day. We could easily make it so doctors could take twice as long with each patient, all we have to do is double the amount spent on doctors.

And I don't really think discipline is the best way to make sure things are done properly, a workplace ruled by fear of discipline is usually a dysfunctional one.

It's not really about having faith in "these people", because there is no "these people". There's just people. They have certain skills and training and there's a system they work in, but they're still just people like all other people.

It's seeing that while the system isn't perfect (no system is), it should be about comparing it to the realistic alternative rather than a theoretical ideal.

My kid was misdiagnosed for a virus when he was young, and the medication had the opposite effect to the point where it was kinda dangerous. A trip to the Children's got things straightened out. It's frustrating of course that a mistake was made, and that if we hadn't doubted things the situation might have been tragic.

But it doesn't give me pause about having faith, because no faith is required. I trust the system because the alternative isn't a system where the mistake isn't made, the alternative is my kid having a pretty decent chance of dying of the original problem.

If 10 mistakes causing death are made it would really suck to be one of those 10, but it would suck worse overall if not making an attempt at all results in 1000 deaths.

[cracher]

Dead on. It's a game of percentages. Until human doctors are all replaced with Emergency Medical Hologram Mark I, there will always be crappy stories out there.

Meningitis is serious business. There is no guarantee that, even if the kid got timely treatment, that he would have survived. There are many overlapping symptoms with less serious afflictions. If you catch a boneheaded ER doc at the end of a shift and they don't want to spend an additional 20 minutes doing an LP, it may not have been caught anyways. But going to the ER still would give you better odds of catching it than just feeding ecchinacea through an eyedropper.

[polak]

Originally Posted by cracher

Dead on. It's a game of percentages. Until human doctors are all replaced with Emergency Medical Hologram Mark I, there will always be crappy stories out there.

Meningitis is serious business. There is no guarantee that, even if the kid got timely treatment, that he would have survived. There are many overlapping symptoms with less serious afflictions. If you catch a boneheaded ER doc at the end of a shift and they don't want to spend an additional 20 minutes doing an LP, it may not have been caught anyways. But going to the ER still would give you better odds of catching it than just feeding ecchinacea through an eyedropper.

Well I'm assuming a normal parent would go back if the symptoms get worse.... One doctors opinion should never be taken as gospel but NO homeopaths opinion should ever even be acknowledged.

[Knut]

Originally Posted by GGG

So what punishment does the least damage to the surviving children and still punishes the parents appropriately?

Jail for the dad and house Arrest and probation for the Mom. Also Mandatory Doctors appointments for the children.

[peter12]

And a less goofy haircut for the dad. Do they still shave your head when you first get into prison?

[4X4]

Originally Posted by PsYcNeT

Hey man, the internet is all about clickbait and zazzing it up.

Gotta add that Razzle Dazzle!

From downtown!
Terrible shot!
He's on fire!!

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Hes

Jail for the dad and house Arrest and probation for the Mom. Also Mandatory Doctors appointments for the children.

Why is the mother punished less? I don't see a different in the stories.

[Cyclops]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

I am sorry to hear about your daughter.

But I think you are unfair to not "have faith in these people".

What about the pharmacist that filled the prescription for your daughter, some fault must rest with that individual as well.

I might not have come across the way I wanted, I still go to the doctors and I'm not into alternatives, but I can see how some people do get fed up and stop going.

These parents are crazy though, that's for sure.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by troutman

Children do get placed permanently with foster parents in serious cases of neglect.

Is that what you would recommend here. Is that good risk based analysis?

The risk to the children is that they contract a disease that without medical intervention will cause them to die and that the parents have learned nothing. What are the odds of that? 1/100???? Less more. vs the emotional damage you do by removing the children from there homes. I would argue that more damage is done by removing the children then the risk of this re-occurring.

I think alternating weekend imprisonment might be appropriate as a deterrant to others (although punishment is rarely a deterrant to others). Maybe force them to volunteer at a hospital. I think mandatory classes on disease causes, treatment and prevention that they must pass might do some good.

I don't think punishment is necessary or beneficial though. These people and people like them do what they think is correct. How do you use this situation to change the way these type of people think?

[troutman]

Originally Posted by GGG

Is that what you would recommend here. Is that good risk based analysis?

I'm glad I don't have to decide this.

I once represented a young father in a shaken baby case. It was unclear who shook the baby, and it was probably very unlikely the baby would be shook again. Still, the court had to err on the side of caution and place the baby permanently with other parents. I recall the Judge saying it was amongst the hardest decisions a court ever has to make.

[OldDutch]

All I will say is the biggest fear of any loving partent is regret. If I made mistakes and it led to mychild dying it would be the worst nightmare ever for me. I was angry when he used this verdict to instead blame the government and not look inward. I can only hope it is a coping mechanism against something that will torture him for the rest of his life.

That day will come, I hope sooner than later so none of his other kids will potentially suffer.

Just breaks my heart, I have a 2 year old and to think of the suffering due to his parents willful mistakes. Ugh.

[CaptainCrunch]

Sentence them to a family day of burning their stupid business to the ground?

[Cyclops]

Originally Posted by photon

Part of the reason is it's hard for them to care when they have to meet so many people in a day. We could easily make it so doctors could take twice as long with each patient, all we have to do is double the amount spent on doctors.

And I don't really think discipline is the best way to make sure things are done properly, a workplace ruled by fear of discipline is usually a dysfunctional one.

It's not really about having faith in "these people", because there is no "these people". There's just people. They have certain skills and training and there's a system they work in, but they're still just people like all other people.

It's seeing that while the system isn't perfect (no system is), it should be about comparing it to the realistic alternative rather than a theoretical ideal.

My kid was misdiagnosed for a virus when he was young, and the medication had the opposite effect to the point where it was kinda dangerous. A trip to the Children's got things straightened out. It's frustrating of course that a mistake was made, and that if we hadn't doubted things the situation might have been tragic.

But it doesn't give me pause about having faith, because no faith is required. I trust the system because the alternative isn't a system where the mistake isn't made, the alternative is my kid having a pretty decent chance of dying of the original problem.

If 10 mistakes causing death are made it would really suck to be one of those 10, but it would suck worse overall if not making an attempt at all results in 1000 deaths.

A person needs an appointment to refill a prescription which they continuously take. This is so they can get paid for the visit. I see a specialist every 6 weeks, my doctor insists I see him after. Nothing is ever discussed other than how the appointment went. He already knows this as the specialist sends everything to him. It's a business, and it seems most doctors are in it for the money rather than to help people.

This is my personal experience anyways.

[heep223]

Originally Posted by Cyclops

A person needs an appointment to refill a prescription which they continuously take. This is so they can get paid for the visit. I see a specialist every 6 weeks, my doctor insists I see him after. Nothing is ever discussed other than how the appointment went. He already knows this as the specialist sends everything to him. It's a business, and it seems most doctors are in it for the money rather than to help people.

This is my personal experience anyways.

Stop being so dramatic.

My guess:

0.5% are in it just for the money
0.5% are in it just to help people
99% are in it for both the money and to help people.

I am OK with this. All kinds of professionals are in it to make a living and also because they're passionate about what they do. Why would doctors be any different?

[Cyclops]

Originally Posted by heep223

Stop being so dramatic.

My guess:

0.5% are in it just for the money
0.5% are in it just to help people
99% are in it for both the money and to help people.

I am OK with this. All kinds of professionals are in it to make a living and also because they're passionate about what they do. Why would doctors be any different?

How the hell am I being dramatic? I am in my profession to make a living, if I'm not paying attention and blow up a building then I'm held accountable. Are doctors held accountable for mistakes they make?

[cracher]

Originally Posted by Cyclops

How the hell am I being dramatic? I am in my profession to make a living, if I'm not paying attention and blow up a building then I'm held accountable. Are doctors held accountable for mistakes they make?

Tell you what. Why don't I pay your E&O for a year and you pay my malpractice insurance. I think this would answer your question.

[Azure]

Next step should be throwing parents who don't vaccinate their kids into jail as well.

[Reaper]

Originally Posted by Azure

Next step should be throwing parents who don't vaccinate their kids into jail as well.

Go on...

[Slava]

Originally Posted by cracher

Tell you what. Why don't I pay your E&O for a year and you pay my malpractice insurance. I think this would answer your question.

Sure doctors carry malpractice insurance, but its pretty well known that if there is a hint of a suit against them they basically circle the wagons and no one will testify against the others. I get it, but even in clear cut cases if you can't find an expert (i.e. another doctor) to testify or give evidence you don't have a case. Malpractice insurance isn't paying, and no one is.