Training Camp Day 11 Notes - Flames assign 9 players to AHL. 6 players on waivers.

[Savvy27]

What is it that Rooney does well? Genuine question. His counting stats and possession stats are some of the worst I have ever seen from a player who has stayed in the NHL for several season in a row.

His career high is 14 points.
His career high TOI is 13:51.
He has been a negative possession player every season (CF% last 4 seasons - 33.6-38.4-38.4-39.1) and he seems to be getting worse relative to his team (last year -17.3 CF%rel).
He has never been above water on faceoffs and has a career average of 46.3%.

This preseason:
28th in camp in CF% at 45% (-11.9 relative!)
Team has 1GF vs 2GA with him on the ice.
He has been on for more shots for than against to be fair (16v15), but more chances against than for.

I don't see the appeal, but I am curious what he is doing well out there that people like?


Yet, some people seem to really like his game. I haven't seen him do anything that Mitch McLain didn't do out there.

[jg13]

Originally Posted by tony-soprano

People actually think Phillips deserves a 10 game try out with the big club? Or is this crazy talk just on twitter?

Sound like crazy talk on Twitter. I think people advocating for Phillips here just wanted to see him have 1 game during pre season in the top 9.

[Paulie Walnuts]

Originally Posted by Savvy27

What is it that Rooney does well? Genuine question. His counting stats and possession stats are some of the worst I have ever seen from a player who has stayed in the NHL for several season in a row.

His career high is 14 points.
His career high TOI is 13:51.
He has been a negative possession player every season (CF% last 4 seasons - 33.6-38.4-38.4-39.1) and he seems to be getting worse relative to his team (last year -17.3 CF%rel).
He has never been above water on faceoffs and has a career average of 46.3%.

This preseason:
28th in camp in CF% at 45% (11.9 relative!)
Team has 1GF vs 2GA with him on the ice.
He has been on for more shots for than against to be fair (16v15), but more chances against than for.

I don't see the appeal, but I am curious what he is doing well out there that people like?


Yet, some people seem to really like his game. I haven't seen him do anything that Mitch McLain didn't do out there.

He has some speed but the rest is concerning. The entire system is based on shot volume and possession and you get a player that is the complete opposite in how we want to play is strange. If was good at faceoffs I could see the appeal but 46% is pretty bad, and the key to possession hockey is winning faceoffs. It's no surprise when we have been top faceoff team we have won the division twice.

[saillias]

Is Valimaki salvageable?

If you watch his interview today he says he feels good, physically & mentally he claims he's never felt better, yet on ice he looks worse now than D+1.

[Your Calgary Flames!]

The one thing I can take away from this thread is how widely varying the opinions are on the players. It sure can’t be easy to be a GM or even a coach.

I will give Sutter/Treliving the benefit of the doubt for another year as the players that were brought in last year I thought would be a disaster but turned out fairly well. I will also trust their decision on whether any AHL player deserves to stick or call up. However, if this year does not go well then I will have a change of opinion.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Cali Panthers Fan

His lack of consistency makes him not worthy of the NHL. NHLers bring a consistent effort 9 out of 10 nights, but with Ruzicka it's like 60/40 at best, even in the AHL. Other teams will view him the same way. He'll pass.

World's greatest myth.

[kyuss275]

Originally Posted by tony-soprano

People actually think Phillips deserves a 10 game try out with the big club? Or is this crazy talk just on twitter?

Haha. I’m a bigger fan of Phillips than most and there is no way he deserves to date ,a 10 day tryout with big club. I do however thought he deserved another pre-season game and go from there. It is what it is , and I won’t lose any sleep over his demotion.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Heavy Jack

Looks like Dube is getting a shot at the top 6 at least to start the year; with Kylington headed to LTIR to start the Flames will begin accruing deadline cap space too, it will be an interesting topic to follow along and it’s funny that top 6 RW continues to be the biggest need for this club.

I also want to see Mangi get a look on his off wing on the top line at some point too, Toff has been pretty quiet through camp.

If Kylington is on LTIR, they will not bank any cap space.

With LTIR, you can go over the cap (by up to that amount), but the LTIR still eats up space up to the cap.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by boogerz

The Rooney signing is still incredibly puzzling. $1.3M on a multi-year deal for a guy that can be so easily displaced by someone on a PTO...

The evidence would suggest otherwise.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by kyuss275

Haha. I’m a bigger fan of Phillips than most and there is no way he deserves to date ,a 10 day tryout with big club. I do however thought he deserved another pre-season game and go from there. It is what it is , and I won’t lose any sleep over his demotion.

I think Sutter saw all he needed to in the last game. I know the assist on Stone's OT winner in the split squad game has really played well here, but that was a unicorn point. Not many times you're going to see a 4-on-3 PP where there was so much ice for a player to exploit. In the last game played for Phillips he was a non-entity for two of three periods, getting scored on twice, one where the primary assist came from his man where he had poor gap control, and the other with the Flames on the PP and he showed little hustle to try and get back defensively. Sutter is all about play on both sides of the puck and play hard every shift. Phillips had the up hill climb and did himself no favors in his appearances IMO. He needed to stand out for good reasons and he never really did in the way he needed to. I think if they were going to give him another game it would have been in the Edmonton game.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

The issue I have with Eakin getting signed is he should theoretically be displacing Lewis or Rooney. There's no need to have all three of those guys in the lineup at the same time.

And if one of the guys competing for the top 9 job (Milano, Pelletier, Phillips, Ruzicka) had grabbed the spot, that is likely what would have happened.

Bottom line: Rooney and Eakin were better than those guys.

[Paulie Walnuts]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

And if one of the guys competing for the top 9 job (Milano, Pelletier, Phillips, Ruzicka) had grabbed the spot, that is likely what would have happened.

Bottom line: Rooney and Eakin were better than those guys.

That's the issue none of the offensive guys got a chance in roles they can make a impact on. Eakin did and it's not like Eakin came in a forced himself onto the roster he really hasn't done anything, he had a goal which he whiffed on and luckily it got a piece of his stick and went into the empty net.

Rooney has looked fine but he should not be in a elevated role as well He's done nothing to show he is a 3rd liner but someone who belongs on the 4th line.

Sutter some his fault and some not has not run a Sutter like camp.

[TheScorpion]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

And if one of the guys competing for the top 9 job (Milano, Pelletier, Phillips, Ruzicka) had grabbed the spot, that is likely what would have happened.

Bottom line: Rooney and Eakin were better than those guys.

And if they do well, great. I wasn't a fan of the Versteeg signing in 2016 and he turned out to be excellent that year.

That said, I don't have high expectations for either player based on their thoroughly underwhelming track records over much more significant samples than a training camp. We'll see.

I think the satisfactory answer for management, coaching, and fans ultimately lies outside the organization. I feel like we'll probably see a trade at some point. Because Cody Eakin and Kevin Rooney are almost certainly not top-nine NHLers.

[Enoch Root]

Fans like to see creativity and offensive plays. Coaches like to see good, smart positional play - particularly from the bottom 6. So when I see fans say 'I haven't seen anything from this player', when the coach clearly does, I can only take the statement so seriously.

Rooney has good speed and has played smart, sound hockey. Frankly, I think he will look great with Backlund and Coleman (if that is where he lines up), and all the talk about his past possession numbers is meaningless because, with those guys, he will have great numbers.

[CFO]

Put Coleman on the top line. Would get 25-30 goals.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

And if they do well, great. I wasn't a fan of the Versteeg signing in 2016 and he turned out to be excellent that year.

That said, I don't have high expectations for either player based on their thoroughly underwhelming track records over much more significant samples than a training camp. We'll see.

I think the satisfactory answer for management, coaching, and fans ultimately lies outside the organization. I feel like we'll probably see a trade at some point. Because Cody Eakin and Kevin Rooney are almost certainly not top-nine NHLers.

With all due respect, Versteeg isn't your only miss (we all get lots of them wrong). You were one of the most vocal against both Gudbranson and Zadorov last year for instance. Not trying to kick you here, but frankly, you don't seem to appreciate the skill set required for bottom 6, bottom pair guys.

[TheScorpion]

I think the crux of the argument re: Phillips over the last three years has to do with what's been proven. People often point to Phillips not having proven anything at the NHL level, and it's true.

But what the likes of Brad Richardson, Tyler Pitlick, Trevor Lewis, Cody Eakin, and Kevin Rooney have been able to prove at the NHL level in recent seasons is that they don't score much, they're slow, and they get absolutely run over in their own end.

It's not that folks like me and many others think Matt Phillips is some kind of saviour. I've been very measured in what I've said since I started covering the Heat a couple years ago -- he might not be anything, he might be something, but we won't know until we see him in a game that actually means something. And we likely won't at this point, despite Brett Ritchie, Tyler Pitlick, and now Eakin getting multiple looks with quality NHLers. Phillips is an unknown quantity who is coming off a year where he was the highest-scoring AHL player still eligible for the Calder Trophy. The only thing we can really quantify about him is his size, which works against him. But in terms of actual numbers that matter in the NHL -- goals for, goals against, chance differential -- we already know that guys like Eakin and Rooney get absolutely smoked.

So when it comes down to it, when I say Phillips should get a look, it's not because I think he'll be a Gaudreau or a Mangiapane or even a Dillon Dube. It's because he might be good. Whereas we pretty much already know that guys like Rooney and Eakin consistently get steamrolled in the big leagues.

It's not the Flames' nature to operate that way, and that's just the way it is. They'll probably be fine. But they're still short a top-nine forward for this season, and they're not going to find it internally with the candidates they've settled on after these last cuts. They're probably gonna have to trade for one.

(Also, re: Gudbranson -- willing to bet he's back to his pre-Calgary self this year in Columbus. The early reviews on his pre-season showings have not been very positive. When all is said and done, I think his Flames year will go down as a huge anomaly -- he's just not particularly effective in the majority of NHL systems).

[Reggie Dunlop]

Ironically, Rooney and Coleman played together on Albany Devils.

[Enoch Root]

First of all, neither Eakin nor Rooney is slow.

Second, as I said before, bottom 6 guys need to play good positional hockey, more than they need to be able to make a good offensive play.

I think Phillips could probably do a decent job playing a top 6 role on a non-contender. But he isn't going to make the Flames. On the other hand, both Eakin and Rooney are players that Sutter can count on to do what he needs them to do.

I agree that Gudbranson will regress again this year, but that isn't the point. The point is that, on a good team, given a clear role, and surrounded by other players who can fulfill their roles, he was able to succeed. I expect the exact same thing from Eakin and Rooney - surrounded by good players, on a well structured team, they will be in a position to succeed.

[TheScorpion]

I certainly don't think Eakin is fast. But you're right, I unfairly lumped Rooney in there -- his boots are fine.

I just look at the Backlund line. It's a line that has consistently been used to usher young players into the league. That's more of a top-six calibre line than it is a bottom-six line, and it's going to be a formidable scoring unit this year. Both Backlund and Coleman are very skilled.

I don't see what you have to gain by putting a no-mistake low-event veteran on that line. Use the fourth line for that if you must, but Backlund and Coleman need someone who can create.

Also, you can't really give Gudbranson credit for being insulated by a great team.