70% say Notley doesn't know what Albertans want/57% say UCP is to conservative

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

I'd argue by the time of Stelmach, Redford, and Prentice, the Alberta PCs were a centrist party.

And I think this is exactly what I am talking about in relation to Albertan voter views of centrism.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

And I think this is exactly what I am talking about in relation to Albertan voter views of centrism.

Compared to who and whose view is right?

Are we to suggest that BC would have the appropriate view of centrism?

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

I'd argue by the time of Stelmach, Redford, and Prentice, the Alberta PCs were a centrist party.

Yes, they were... but they were such lazy losers that they decided they'd rather let Jason Kenney blow themselves up then go through the work of earning those votes back.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by nik-

Compared to who and whose view is right?

Are we to suggest that BC would have the appropriate view of centrism?

I'm not saying there is a right and a wrong answer, but for example Gordon Campbell's bc liberals were more centrist than stelmach/Redford but conservative enough to get a political position from the Harper government. He implemented BCs HST, massively increased post secondary funding at the provincial level, reopened negotiations with first nations and presided over some environmental regulations as well. He mixed it with the standard con playbook of austerity cuts, public sector layoffs and the like, but his legacy is substantially more centrist than just buying teachers and nurses with 100 dollar barrels of oil.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

And I think this is exactly what I am talking about in relation to Albertan voter views of centrism.

Redford's PCs won 61 of 87 seats.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Redford's PCs won 61 of 87 seats.

...ok?

[CliffFletcher]

I thought you were saying Albertans haven't shown much interest in electing centrist governments. They gave a clearly centrist Redford a huge majority.

[Table 5]

If he loses the municipal election, can Nenshi form a party and run please.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by Table 5

If he loses the municipal election, can Nenshi form a party and run please.

A little off-topic, but if he loses it will be evident that he ought to have run for the federal Liberals in 2015. He would obviously be a cabinet minister and be on a short-list of say 5-6 people who could legitimately be Prime Minister. A loss Monday would be somewhat problematic. Not insurmountable (and I hope he doesn't lose!), but it would tarnish his image to some extent.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

I thought you were saying Albertans haven't shown much interest in electing centrist governments. They gave a clearly centrist Redford a huge majority.

No, I am saying believing the Redford or stelmach government were centrist is an Albertan view of the political spectrum.

Their centrism was largely cynical vote buying alliances with some special interest public sector unions and with the general public with things like the removal of msp premiums.

Stelmach and Redford were certainly to the left of Klein on their governance, but Klein showed himself to be radically right wing on occasion (whether personally or politically): slashing the social safety net, cutting funds to municipalities, threatening the not withstanding clause, Ralph bucks, gutting healthcare, selling profitable crown corps etc.

Redford and stelmach's uneasy lean leftward opened the door for an even more right wing party, willing to touch social issues even Klein wouldn't touch, to become the official opposition.

Albertan voters have been so appalled by a seeming drift to the center they just voted to embrace right wing politics even further with the UCP, headed either by the right wing opposition leader or a preston manning reform schooler. "Progressive" has literally been excised from the right nomenclature.

Redford perhaps would've eventually had the legacy of centrism, but was unceremoniously ousted from power. Sure, she had some deep personal failings of corruption and hubris, but let's be serious and note it was a snap back to conservatism that lead to her downfall.

Suffice to say, drifting towards the center is enough to make the Alberta electorate uncomfortable enough to pull the pin and retreat to the comforting bosom of Canada's version of social and economic conservatism.

If you think stelmach, Redford and Prentice were centrist politicians you also have to note each one had a declining share of support among the Alberta electorate as they successively approached the centre of the political landscape.

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Redford perhaps would've eventually had the legacy of centrism, but was unceremoniously ousted from power. Sure, she had some deep personal failings of corruption and hubris, but let's be serious and note it was a snap back to conservatism that lead to her downfall.

I'd assign that about 50% of the blame for her downfall. The other 50% goes to the PC's "good ol' boys", Redford was never the choice for the party apparatus, caucus, and other assorted opinionmakers. The folk that would circle the wagons and bury the (metaphorical) bodies when any prior premier got in trouble instead (at best) just sat on their hands for Redford.

Which would have been fine except that most of those sort should have been ruthlessly purged, not courted, and having abandoned the coalition that won her power she had nothing. A fine lesson that all good politicos should know... you dance with the ones that brought ya.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Parallex

I'd assign that about 50% of the blame for her downfall. The other 50% goes to the PC's "good ol' boys", Redford was never the choice for the party apparatus, caucus, and other assorted opinionmakers. The folk that would circle the wagons and bury the (metaphorical) bodies when any prior premier got in trouble instead (at best) just sat on their hands for Redford.

I find it interesting that you are essentially assigning 0% of the blame for Redford's downfall to Redford herself.

[PepsiFree]

I see what Flash is saying and agree, but I don’t think any region escapes having their own political spectrum.

Alberta certainly leans right to the point that if you actually placed the provincial NDP in some other regions, they’d look quite comfortably centrist. Here? Some label them as far left socialists, which is funny. The PC party under Redford and Stelmach certainly became Alberta centrist, but I think they still would’ve comfortably placed far enough to the right in regions that aren’t conservative hot zones.

In Alberta, centrism is still very much a conservative ideology. You don’t even have to cross the imaginary border between right and left to be considered “left wing.” You can pretty easily identify this by the way the Federal Liberals, a center-right party, are viewed as center-left or “worse.”

It’s completely different in the states, where Obama would be center-right if his policies were that of an Alberta’s politician, but down there he’s viewed as a representation of the left. Canada in general skews further left than the US, and that’s true even of Alberta.

[White Out 403]

Alberta. Never change. The AB NDP has governed practically right of centre. If people had the Manitoba NDP in here they'd probably think the Bolsheviks have moved in.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

I find it interesting that you are essentially assigning 0% of the blame for Redford's downfall to Redford herself.

I think he is saying 50 percent is the corruption, 50 percent the conservatize old boy backlash.

I don't know if I agree but I think that's what he is saying.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by Resurrection

Alberta. Never change. The AB NDP has governed practically right of centre. If people had the Manitoba NDP in here they'd probably think the Bolsheviks have moved in.

Practically right of center? I can't think of one right of center example! What would you point to that I must be missing?

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Slava

Practically right of center? I can't think of one right of center example! What would you point to that I must be missing?

They are pro pipeline in a political environment where even a center right party like the federal liberals are not.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

They are pro pipeline in a political environment where even a center right party like the federal liberals are not.

Every party here is pro-pipeline. That doesn't strike me a left/right policy in the least.

Federally, the Liberals have approved pipelines and that's an argument for another thread.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Slava

Every party here is pro-pipeline. That doesn't strike me a left/right policy in the least.

Federally, the Liberals have approved pipelines and that's an argument for another thread.

It is definitely a left right policy, they are being ostracized for it by their counter parts in the left of the spectrum.

In Canada environmental policy is almost wholly dictated by interest on the left of the spectrum. Pipeline and energy extraction infrastructure is almost wholly the domain of the right side.

It is no small thing that the Alberta NDP have championed pipeline capacity as ardently as they have.

Their tax policy has also been incredibly centrist for a party associated in Alberta with freedom crushing socialism. Most of their tax initiatives are similar or the same as what Prentice proposed, minus a corporate tax increase. The NDP haven't implemented a sales tax as Prentice was widely rumoured to be considering. They didn't change the royalty structure in a way that penalized energy production the way stelmach did.

All in all they don't look the least bit like the Boogeyman they are made out to be. No one is going to mistake Notley for Fildebrandt but that's probably a good thing.

[Flamenspiel]

^^I don't agree. Plainly, the NDP sees the pipeline policy as something that can finance left wing social programs and policies. I am not saying that the NDP is as far left as a true marxist-leninist, but they support pipelines and the use of resources in the same way that the Statists like Putin and Xi Jinping do.

There is no evidence that they(NDP) believe in private enterprise as someone on the right would, it is simply a means to an end(a left wing one). Therefore the pipeline policy cannot be categorized as "right wing".