Feds to pay Aboriginals $500 - $700 million for Non Aboriginal Foster homes

[Rathji]

Originally Posted by TheSutterDynasty

Why are we ignoring the rampant problems with native culture and just focussing on the positives? They have some great traditions, language, etc - but how about the overwhelming negative aspects of being on the reserve.
.

I don't really think that 'having a crappy reserve system that had made your life harder in many respects' is really a cultural thing.

Maybe I don't understand what cultural means though...

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Rathji

I don't really think that 'having a crappy reserve system that had made your life harder in many respects' is really a cultural thing.

It's curious to see who wants to maintain the reserve system. And why.

[Rubicant]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Because they didn't have schools in the middle of nowhere back when the residential school system was set up.



Often they didn't. Or they were taught by some random spinster in a barn. That's tough to pull off when nobody in a community has even a high school education.

The apparatus of the modern welfare state was not set up in Canada until the 60s. This country was a very different place before that. There was no secular public school in Quebec, for example, until 1964 - the Catholic church ran all schools. Everyone older than about 60 today in Quebec or Ireland was taught by priests and nuns.



Yes, it was by design. And that's the tragedy. The people who set up the system believed that children had to assimilate to have any future in Canada. They were wrong. But they were not malicious.

That's not really true. My parents grew up in Montreal and were students in the Protestant School Board of Greater Montreal. They apparently said the lord's prayer first thing in the morning and that was it - no priests or nuns.

[para transit fellow]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

The apparatus of the modern welfare state was not set up in Canada until the 60s. This country was a very different place before that. There was no secular public school in Quebec, for example, until 1964 - the Catholic church ran all schools. Everyone older than about 60 today in Quebec or Ireland was taught by priests and nuns.

School boards in Quebec were organized along confessional lines, Catholic and Protestant, since before Canadian Confederation. Quebec was guaranteed a confessional public school system by the British North America Act, 1867

For example, Protestant school board of montreal (PSBGM) was around in various forms for about 150 years before it became the present secular English Montreal School Board in about 1999.

[Rathji]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

It's curious to see who wants to maintain the reserve system. And why.

What I said was not in defense of the reserve system, and really doesn't imply one thing or another about it.

I was saying the reserve isn't a cultural thing, It's an economic and political thing.

No one who talks about persevering native culture is taking about persevering the reserves when they say that.

[Coys1882]

This is good - we ####ed this up and amends need to be made to the people who suffered.

But now what? How do we fix this broken system which are the reserves? You can pay all the apology money that you like but it really should be used to find a way to bring these small pockets of our nation out of third world status.

"We're sorry - and we want to fix what we've done. Help us find a way to keep your culture but break these never ending circles of alcoholism, abuse, corruption and poverty"

[Coys1882]

Originally Posted by Rathji

No one who talks about persevering native culture is taking about persevering the reserves when they say that.

What politician is going to have the balls to touch that landmine? It's career suicide.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Rubicant

That's not really true.

Shocking

[Rathji]

Originally Posted by Coys1882

What politician is going to have the balls to touch that landmine? It's career suicide.

I think you missed my point.

The reserves are not 'native culture'. Full stop.

[redforever]

Originally Posted by Coys1882

This is good - we ####ed this up and amends need to be made to the people who suffered.

But now what? How do we fix this broken system which are the reserves? You can pay all the apology money that you like but it really should be used to find a way to bring these small pockets of our nation out of third world status.

"We're sorry - and we want to fix what we've done. Help us find a way to keep your culture but break these never ending circles of alcoholism, abuse, corruption and poverty"

We need to get good leadership from First Nations, leaders like Chief Clarence Louie from the Osoyoos Reserve. The circle can be broken.

And we have to give more decision making to the reserves. Mistakes will be made initially and there will be grumbling but I see that as the only way to reduce their total dependency.

That will be a long struggle in some cases as corruption runs rampant in many reserves. And we will have to be patient.

I always say that it takes at least 2 or 3 subsequent generations to undo the mistakes of the first generation.

So how many generations of First Nations were exposed to the residential school system and the 60's Scoop? Yeah, it will take a long time and a lot of patience.

[TheSutterDynasty]

Originally Posted by Rathji

I don't really think that 'having a crappy reserve system that had made your life harder in many respects' is really a cultural thing.

Maybe I don't understand what cultural means though...

Culture (/ˈkʌltʃər/) is defined as the social behavior and norms found in human societies.

Some aspects of human behavior, social practices such as culture, expressive forms such as art, music, dance, ritual, and religion, and technologies such as tool usage, cooking, shelter, and clothing are said to be cultural universals, found in all human societies.

Here

I know what you're saying. I suppose it would come down to who you asked on the reserve - maybe some would say it is part of their culture and some say it isn't. But I would suspect the majority would say their culture and lives are tied to the reserves.

This is a big part of the problem for them. Being given reparations means there isn't an obligation to work, learn, or many other 'civilized' practices. Having a "free place to live" (ie the reserve) where you're isolated from some of these 'civilized' practices and a large part of what you see is negative (poor treatment of animals, infrastructure, other humans, drug and alcohol abuse) - how are you supposed to get out of that? One attempt may be to take children out of it - like they did in the 50s and 60s.

Obviously not a solution but it was an attempt.

[redforever]

Originally Posted by TheSutterDynasty

Here

I know what you're saying. I suppose it would come down to who you asked on the reserve - maybe some would say it is part of their culture and some say it isn't. But I would suspect the majority would say their culture and lives are tied to the reserves.

This is a big part of the problem for them. Being given reparations means there isn't an obligation to work, learn, or many other 'civilized' practices. Having a "free place to live" (ie the reserve) where you're isolated from some of these 'civilized' practices and a large part of what you see is negative (poor treatment of animals, infrastructure, other humans, drug and alcohol abuse) - how are you supposed to get out of that? One attempt may be to take children out of it - like they did in the 50s and 60s.

Obviously not a solution but it was an attempt.

I think many would say the reserve life is part of their culture now, but make no mistake, this was a culture forced on them. Most First Nations people were nomadic.

I don't believe for a second that being given reparations means they don't have to work...anymore than you winning the lottery for that amount means you do not have to work.

And having a free place to live, the reserve? The reserve is anything but free and in most cases the reserve is not a place to find meaningful employment either. They were not starving until they were forced to live on reserves that no longer provided the necessities for their former way of life.

I really think they were put on reserves to isolate them, to make it harder for them to voice discontent, or even to communicate with other First Nations people.

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Because they didn't have schools in the middle of nowhere back when the residential school system was set up.

Often they didn't. Or they were taught by some random spinster in a barn. That's tough to pull off when nobody in a community has even a high school education.

The apparatus of the modern welfare state was not set up in Canada until the 60s. This country was a very different place before that. There was no secular public school in Quebec, for example, until 1964 - the Catholic church ran all schools. Everyone older than about 60 today in Quebec or Ireland was taught by priests and nuns.

Sure they did. In BC a public school system was set up in 1872 and by the late 1800s a government run school could be set up anywhere where there were at least 8-10 students who'd attend. How many reserves in that province do you think couldn't have met that requirement?

And that aside, many reserves weren't anywhere you'd ever describe as the "middle of nowhere" either and yet many of their children were sent to residential schools. It wasn't a logistical necessity that children from Victoria, Vancouver, Nanaimo, Kamloops, etc. ended up in residential schools yet they did. There are countless examples of areas where there was sufficient population density to have day schools (i.e. what happened for virtually all non-aboriginal children) but the residential school model was favored. The argument that there was no reasonable alternative is simply untenable.

Yes, it was by design. And that's the tragedy. The people who set up the system believed that children had to assimilate to have any future in Canada. They were wrong. But they were not malicious.

There have been many evils and atrocities committed by paternalistic people who thought they were doing what's best. Colonialism and the "white man's burden" was framed in much the same way. Islamic extremists think they're doing what's best based on how they view the world, but does it really change anything or soften the blow of crimes they commit?

And even if one ignores the ugliness of forced assimilation, one cannot ignore the conditions these children were forced to live under. And this isn't just hindsight talking. PH Bryce (government Chief Medical Officer) was tasked with inspecting the conditions of the schools and he wrote a report in 1907 outlining just how terrible they were. The government ignored his report, did nothing to improve conditions, and so he eventually published his findings in 1922, calling it "The Story of a National Crime: An Appeal for Justice to the Indians of Canada”.

[White Out 403]

I wish a Prime Minister with some balls would just end the reserve system. Give all indigenous peoples a lump sum pay out and cut off the money from there. Join the rest of us in the 21st century. Want to live on the reserve? Your reserve will have to pay for its own clinics with property taxes like anyone else.

The reserve system has done nothing but decimate the indigenous peoples in our country to a sort of slavery. They live in dilapidated communities where suicide rates are off the charts. All so white liberals can feel good about sending them money for stealing their lands centuries ago. Its gross racism of low expectations.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by para transit fellow

School boards in Quebec were organized along confessional lines, Catholic and Protestant, since before Canadian Confederation. Quebec was guaranteed a confessional public school system by the British North America Act, 1867

For example, Protestant school board of montreal (PSBGM) was around in various forms for about 150 years before it became the present secular English Montreal School Board in about 1999.

Sorry, I should have specified that Catholic Quebecois were taught in parochial schools. The point is that the Catholic Church taking responsibility for schooling children was the norm in much of the Western world.

It's also worth noting that many Natives in Canada were, and continue to be, Catholic.

Originally Posted by redforever

I always say that it takes at least 2 or 3 subsequent generations to undo the mistakes of the first generation.

So how many generations of First Nations were exposed to the residential school system and the 60's Scoop? Yeah, it will take a long time and a lot of patience.

Are Canada's Native communities that weren't involved in the residential school system doing better today? Not that I can see. It's worthwhile to recognize the damage caused by the residential school system. But it seems to have become regarded in recent years as the main, or even sole, reason for the collapse of Native culture and dismaying state of Native communities today. Considering the state of Native communities that weren't effected - including Native cultures all across the Americas - that assumption looks shaky.

It's tempting to look at single, identifiable causes for very bad things. Especially if you can cast it in an emotionally-satisfying narrative with a villain. Canadians are in jeopardy of giving into that temptation with what is a complex and deeply intractable issue.

[afc wimbledon]

The problem with reserves is that 'we' white Canada set up a system in order to ensure compliance, frankly that's still what we get generally, for all of the occasional protests about pipelines or roads Native leadership is very well paid to keep their mouths shut about the appalling state of their peoples lives and not kick up a fuss, for that they are paid a fortune.

My feeing is if you want to improve natives lives you have to pay them directly whether they are on reserve or off, no money should go to the band, it should go to the members and the band should have to raise taxes like any other municipality, this would also encourage bands to try and keep band members on the Res' as it stands now the more band members leave due to poverty the more money the one or two families that run the band get to keep.

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by Resurrection

I wish a Prime Minister with some balls would just end the reserve system. Give all indigenous peoples a lump sum pay out and cut off the money from there. Join the rest of us in the 21st century. Want to live on the reserve? Your reserve will have to pay for its own clinics with property taxes like anyone else.

The reserve system has done nothing but decimate the indigenous peoples in our country to a sort of slavery. They live in dilapidated communities where suicide rates are off the charts. All so white liberals can feel good about sending them money for stealing their lands centuries ago. Its gross racism of low expectations.

What you want is impossible. There is no legal basis for the government to unilaterally end the reserve system as it's part of our constitution and any changes must be negotiated. Which is possible, but it's going to be a very expensive and long process. The Nisga'a nation (about 6,000 people) received nearly 2,000 square km of land and almost $200M as part of their agreement in 1998.

[81MC]

Originally Posted by redforever

I think many would say the reserve life is part of their culture now, but make no mistake, this was a culture forced on them. Most First Nations people were nomadic.

Many Indigneous groups of the Americas were not, in fact, nomadic at all. There are lots of modern day cities that were actually native settlements, and quite established at that. True, some tribes were nomadic and followed herds etc, but the idea that natives were not settled was promoted to minimize just how savagely Europeans 'displaced' the natives.
It wasn't just their open 'land' that was systemically and deceitfully taken, but the villages and infrastructures that had been a huge part of native culture for a long, long time.

[-TC-]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

Schools and services? Could it look like this? Perhaps maybe indigenous people have to let go of some of their cultural ties.

Let's compare a native person to an immigrant for this scenario. What if a native person were treated like an immigrant (i know it's weird but hear me out). An immigrant comes to Canada and they get a PR Card and SIN. With this PR Card they get services that even us Canadian Citizens don't get. Like free english classes (LINC). Free training and employment services like CIWA and CCIS. There are seminars and workshops for them, all FREE to integrate into Canadian life. They do keep some of their culture but it's always a tricky balance.

Now what does a native person get? This is where I probably show my ignorance. Do they get free English classes? Sure they know English on the reservations but it is good enough to compete and work with urbanites? Do they get funded training and employment services specifically targeted to them? Do they get seminars and workshops.

If not, why is the immigrant holding a PR card getting more services than the native person, that's there the money and education should go.

You pose a compelling question... I’d love to hear Trudeau respond to it.