"Me Too"

[Scimitar]

I think an often overlooked issue is that we don't always create a safe enough environment for women who ask for help and support after experiencing harassment. Being dismissed, ridiculed, threatened with career ending consequences and even further harassed seems to be a big obstacle for many women who are willing to report inappropriate or criminal behavior. I just read that Jennifer Lawrence was told that she was perfectly "fu**able" after she had complained she had been called fat I don't care how thick skinned you are, eventually you will give up the fight and suffer jn silence which emboldens these jerks further.

[OMG!WTF!]

Do you compliment your son’s appearance the same way you compliment your daughter’s? If you don’t have a son, would you? Do you compliment the appearance of your male friends the same way you compliment the appearance of your female friends?
I am not saying we should treat everyone exactly the same. I am saying we should be aware of whom we treat differently, when we treat them differently, and why we do so. Once we are aware of those things, I think an understanding of if we need to change our behavior will follow almost automatically.

I hear women compliment their handsome son's appearance all the time. Moms gush all over their cute little boys and handsome young men. If you've got one of each and a spouse of the opposite sex I think the compliments are probably equally distributed. But I would agree they're probably not the best way to build self esteem in kids. Nor is it a good precedent to set.

I've never understood complimenting another adult on their appearance though. I come at it from as a guy who buys and sells art so when I judge something as beautiful it's a commodity and it had better be the prevailing opinion in the market. It seems strange to me to offer that opinion of another person.

What I often do is compliment jewelry, perfume or accessories. Occasionally clothes. I have a passion for those things so it's a sincere "Holy crap I really like your xxx brand handbag". That's always taken well because it's a common interest and these things are designed to stand out. I guess it's the difference between saying "you're beautiful" and "that's beautiful".

[JohnnyB]

I seem detached. This thread just seems weird to me. How messed up is North America? Seems like just not being a jerk is enough. Being a jerk with anyone is lame. Also, is there some 'right' idea of gender roles?

Is this just the ice bucket challenge version of not being an #######? Like everyone online gets to share about not being an ####### for a bit, then #######s keep being #######s because another trend came along and everyone says that caring about not being an ####### is all 'last year'.

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by GordonBlue

wonder how many guys are willing to maybe reassess the type of porn they consume.
some of the crap out there fosters more inappropriate attitudes towards women than someone like yourself innocently sitting outside admiring a few women going by.

This is such a huge component of the whole issue, and it's routinely swept under the rug and hushed.

Porn is the definition of objectifying women (and people), and for all intents and purposes, everyone consumes it. I'm not too proud to admit I've consumed it, especially in my younger years, but I've been porn free for a long time now in an effort to change my overall attitude toward women. I don't think I was ever addicted to it, but it can be an incredibly hard addiction to break and it can really affects the mind. It was hard for me to stop. People think it's harmless because you consume it alone and in privacy, but countless studies have shown how porn ruins intimacy and alters people's perspectives towards women, and men, for that matter. I think the "type" of porn is irrelevant.

I hope more people take a long introspective look at themselves and consider abstaining from porn forever. I don't really have much hope, but perhaps one day, after a generation, porn will be openly talked about and equally looked down upon like grabbing a girl's ass in public is, or calling a homosexual a fag.

I think people need to shake the scourge of porn from their minds before they can free themselves to do some of the things in Troutman's post of suggestions.

[Red Slinger]

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

I seem detached. This thread just seems weird to me. How messed up is North America? Seems like just not being a jerk is enough. Being a jerk with anyone is lame. Also, is there some 'right' idea of gender roles?

You don't think it's just as bad, if not worse in Asia, Europe, Africa, South America and Australia (and probably Antarctica too)?

Is this just the ice bucket challenge version of not being an #######? Like everyone online gets to share about not being an ####### for a bit, then #######s keep being #######s because another trend came along and everyone says that caring about not being an ####### is all 'last year'.

I think this is more about looking out for 50% of the population that has been historically demeaned, objectified and assaulted. It's about trying to make the life experience of our wives, daughters, etc a little better.

I don't know if your post is sarcasm or tongue in cheek or what. If so, it wasn't executed well. If not, you may want to start practicing the whole "not being a jerk" thing.

As for me, I'm ashamed to admit that I've certainly been guilty of objectifying and demeaning women both in personal and business settings, particularly in my early 20's. Fortunately, my wife has never had to say "me too" and I hope with all the hope I have that my daughter will never have to (or hasn't had to already ).

[81MC]

On the other hand, if you only ever tell your date/lover/spouse you find their commodities attractive, I don't think that's a good sign. Objectifying people is not good, but going the other way so our children think stuff and things are the way to get noticed, I don't agree with. If you really can't say a nice compliment about someone's appearance, maybe their personality is a better place to start than their store bought goods. Nothing wrong with telling a lady she has nice shoes or a great jacket, but I can't see how that's better than nice eyes or a great smile.
Is there not a sensible middle ground where we can accept and enjoy the beauty around us? I'm a guy who finds women attractive, and if I'm close with someone I think is beautiful, I'll say it (assuming I think they'd be receptive to it and would like to hear it). Are we that ridiculously unrefined and unaware that the only way to avoid sexually harassing someone is to stop interacting on a human level and ignoring the fact most of us are physiologically attracted to other human beings?

[Red Slinger]

Originally Posted by 81MC

On the other hand, if you only ever tell your date/lover/spouse you find their commodities attractive, I don't think that's a good sign. Objectifying people is not good, but going the other way so our children think stuff and things are the way to get noticed, I don't agree with. If you really can't say a nice compliment about someone's appearance, maybe their personality is a better place to start than their store bought goods. Nothing wrong with telling a lady she has nice shoes or a great jacket, but I can't see how that's better than nice eyes or a great smile.
Is there not a sensible middle ground where we can accept and enjoy the beauty around us? I'm a guy who finds women attractive, and if I'm close with someone I think is beautiful, I'll say it (assuming I think they'd be receptive to it and would like to hear it). Are we that ridiculously unrefined and unaware that the only way to avoid sexually harassing someone is to stop interacting on a human level and ignoring the fact most of us are physiologically attracted to other human beings?

Do you compliment men on their appearance too? If not, why not?

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by Red Slinger

Do you compliment men on their appearance too? If not, why not?

Only Hector from Troy.

[Weitz]

Originally Posted by 81MC

On the other hand, if you only ever tell your date/lover/spouse you find their commodities attractive, I don't think that's a good sign. Objectifying people is not good, but going the other way so our children think stuff and things are the way to get noticed, I don't agree with. If you really can't say a nice compliment about someone's appearance, maybe their personality is a better place to start than their store bought goods. Nothing wrong with telling a lady she has nice shoes or a great jacket, but I can't see how that's better than nice eyes or a great smile.
Is there not a sensible middle ground where we can accept and enjoy the beauty around us? I'm a guy who finds women attractive, and if I'm close with someone I think is beautiful, I'll say it (assuming I think they'd be receptive to it and would like to hear it). Are we that ridiculously unrefined and unaware that the only way to avoid sexually harassing someone is to stop interacting on a human level and ignoring the fact most of us are physiologically attracted to other human beings?

Originally Posted by Red Slinger

Do you compliment men on their appearance too? If not, why not?

I won't answer for him, but for me, no I don't compliment men because I don't find them attractive. I also don't complement woman I am not seeing on their appearance. I will comment to friends sometimes on things like, nice hair cut or a nice outfit because they like the compliments.

[calgaryblood]

I really don't see the problem commenting on a women's appearance as long as you know the woman. And yes I've commented on a male friends haircut or outfit as well.

[81MC]

Originally Posted by Red Slinger

Do you compliment men on their appearance too? If not, why not?

If my buddy looks sharp, or has good hair or has dope shoes or is classically handsome, you bet. But I rarely, never in fact, have told a guy I get lost in their eyes, or love the way they smell, or think they have a great butt. But I also never happen to find myself in a situation with a guy where any of those would be appropriate...you know, obviously because I'm a homophobic masogonist.

[Johnny Makarov]

Originally Posted by calgaryblood

Look no further than the PGT after a win for objectification of women.

If men don't think that has an effect on the way we view women they are only fooling themselves. They are looked as sex objects and IMO getting rid of that mindset is a great start.

I can't remember who but someone keeps putting up teenage korean girls in there....

[GirlySports]

i see two issues here, kids then adults

Parents/Kids
Stop posting on facebook. Stop posting every single event your kid goes to online. "Here's my handsome man getting ready for a long road trip". Picture of a 1 year old in a car seat. I think it's equally both boy and girl toddlers but then in the teenage years society emphasizes the girl's beauty more than the boy's. Girls know this too and they go a little boy crazy in their high school years. Competition.

Adults

A compliment is always nice. I would think we have the social skills to differentiate between what is what. A guy who likes a girl or vice versa has to start the interaction somehow. Usually is it regarding an interest of a topic, or an accessory or article of clothing etc.. Otherwise how would anyone meet?

But I think women can be hypocritical here as well. Women are competing for the best guys as well and they look prettier and prettier and prettier. They want to be noticed, but it has to be from the right guy, it's harassment if it's from the wrong guy.

I know I'm going against the movement here but I'll mention again. I don't mind the stuff that happens outside of work. There is a difference between bar staff and bar patrons. Don't harass people in their work environment period. And waitress, don't wear revealing stuff. But it's even worse in the corporate workplace, that's where the real and often silent harassment takes place.

[Red Slinger]

Originally Posted by 81MC

If my buddy looks sharp, or has good hair or has dope shoes or is classically handsome, you bet. But I rarely, never in fact, have told a guy I get lost in their eyes, or love the way they smell, or think they have a great butt. But I also never happen to find myself in a situation with a guy where any of those would be appropriate...you know, obviously because I'm a homophobic masogonist.

I wasn't implying that you are a misogynist. Sorry if it came across that way. I was literally asking an open question which you subsequently answered.

I know many men, hell I was one, who point out a woman's appearance but would never consider the same for a man. That is a clear double standard based on sexuality. It's the objectification of women even if they are only waitresses...

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by Red Slinger

I wasn't implying that you are a misogynist. Sorry if it came across that way. I was literally asking an open question which you subsequently answered.

I know many men, hell I was one, who point out a woman's appearance but would never consider the same for a man. That is a clear double standard based on sexuality. It's the objectification of women even if they are only waitresses...

To me women compliment everyone and men compliment nobody. Just do this experiment at your work today. Mark down how many times women compliment other women.

[RogerWilco]

Originally Posted by GGG

I think the point is it's much easier to comment on a strangers behaviour who will tell you to #### off than a friends behaviour who you have to deal with the awkwardness.

The one I focus on and call out is using female terms as insults. Throws like a girl, ##### etc.

I defitmately need to work on my desire to victim blame.

I think the real test is if you can call out an overbearing, overinflated ego boss or superior at work.

[Red Slinger]

Yet another solid take GS.

[northcrunk]

Doesn't this have to do with being sexually assaulted/raped/molested? Why has this thread turned into the PC gender role argument thread?

[OMG!WTF!]

Originally Posted by northcrunk

Doesn't this have to do with being sexually assaulted/raped/molested? Why has this thread turned into the PC gender role argument thread?

Harassment included. So unwanted or inappropriate compliments for sure included.

[northcrunk]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

To me women compliment everyone and men compliment nobody. Just do this experiment at your work today. Mark down how many times women compliment other women.

It's true. My wife is usually the one to point out something nice about a woman we are by while I just don't really care that much to complement strangers.