The Brain Drain Thread

[Ozy_Flame]

That Maritimes comment. Oh boy.

[Table 5]

Originally Posted by troutman

Liverpool? Imagine a swimming pool full of liver. Gross.

At least they added the l at the end.

[you&me]

Originally Posted by calf

How are people feeling about Ontario? Toronto or SW Ontario?

I know Doug Ford's government has many warts, but in comparison to Kenney, how would it be?

There's a less than 1% chance of us leaving Alberta as we need to be close to our parents who aren't moving, but we have lots of family in that region which would make it a bit easier of a transition than BC where we know nobody.

My wife commented this morning about thinking about moving to Toronto.

She was born there and moved to Calgary as a teenager. I was born and raised here. We've been there to visit her family, for weddings and have now spent a few summers in Muskoka... I'm a city guy at heart, so the vibe and energy of Toronto has always appealed to me, but I always considered it more of a 'nice place to visit' or 'grass is greener' sort of thing.

Being born and raised in Calgary, I was too young to notice the effects of the 80s bust and as long as I've been aware enough to notice, Calgary's growth trajectory was essentially always heading up. Even though I have zero personal ties to O&G, I always enjoyed the energy and the feeling of being part of a big change with the growth of the city. All of that energy has now seemed to have disappeared. I was able to accept 2014 as a 'downturn'; a temporary dip that would eventually cede to another exciting boom. But more and more it feels like this could be it... done, finito.

I think someone posted earlier that a parent's duty is to provide every opportunity they can for their children. While I do have family here, there is zero professional reason I need to be here and the only thing holding me back at this point is a concern about uprooting the kids, just as they're getting into a groove with school, friends and activities. The pragmatic part of me thinks it might be best just to pull the chord sooner than later, before the kid's lives get more entrenched and to give them more time to reestablish in a new place (admittedly, this is probably embellishing things - my oldest is only 8).

I'd really appreciate hearing from any parents that have experience in making big moves for their families - how disruptive was it, how easy was the settlement phase, and ultimately, was it worth it?

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by calf

How are people feeling about Ontario? Toronto or SW Ontario?

I know Doug Ford's government has many warts, but in comparison to Kenney, how would it be?

There's a less than 1% chance of us leaving Alberta as we need to be close to our parents who aren't moving, but we have lots of family in that region which would make it a bit easier of a transition than BC where we know nobody.

If you like skiing, don’t do it.

Otherwise just don’t move to, or work in, the GTA and there are a few great options.

[Red Slinger]

I've travelled quite a bit and lived overseas and I can honestly say I have a great deal of affection for Calgary and I have a lot of pride in being Canadian. That said, I have a lot less pride in being Albertan.

There are a lot of great things about this province and generally speaking I think Albertans are no better or worse than any other people. For decades we had conservative governments but they were usually pragmatic and didn't filter decisions through right-wing dogmatism. Peter Lougheed, IMO, was one of the best leaders that this country has seen in it's history.

However, it seems that the rise of right-wing dogma has seeped into the soul of Canadian political parties, none more so than Alberta, since the rise of the Reform Party in the 90's (which coincided with the rise of Gingrinch/Limbaugh/Fox News era in the US). Instead of center-right vs. center-left in Canada we see firmly right vs. center-left vs. firmly left. In Alberta I'd say it's closer to borderline extreme-right vs. center.

My kids are all finishing University in the next couple of years and my wife and I are strongly considering moving away from a city that I love. The reasons are partly economic (tired of the resource roller-coaster) but not exclusively. We are both very concerned about the direction of Alberta under Kenney and it feels like Alberta may end losing our 'advantage' or even falling behind the rest of the country and world. We are also thinking about moving to the BC interior or coast. I'm just one anecdote adding to this thread but I've also heard from several other people, mostly highly educated professionals, that feel the same.

[Ozy_Flame]

Originally Posted by calf

How are people feeling about Ontario? Toronto or SW Ontario?

I know Doug Ford's government has many warts, but in comparison to Kenney, how would it be?

There's a less than 1% chance of us leaving Alberta as we need to be close to our parents who aren't moving, but we have lots of family in that region which would make it a bit easier of a transition than BC where we know nobody.

Spouse and I are likely leaving AB for a variety of reasons, and Toronto is our destination in the next two years. Work/Family/Lifestyle all match up, particularly work since the economy is hot out there and has a more stable government for my spouse. Cottage country is amazing. And having Montreal/Maritimes/New England all but a drive or flight away is fantastic. The food scene is also diverse and amazing (I'm quite the foodie at heart). We considered BC, but it's just not our jam - at least for now.

I lived abroad for a while and I can say once you spend time outside of Alberta (after growing up in it) you might really have a different perspective. It wasn't the same after I came back, but I still loved it (just in a different way).

One thing I will miss considerably is Alberta's fantastic brewery scene. This is one of the few bright spots in the last few years. Just amazing for what you can find across the province.

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

One thing I will miss considerably is Alberta's fantastic brewery scene. This is one of the few bright spots in the last few years. Just amazing for what you can find across the province.

Moving to Ontario, especially Toronto, will make you forget this was ever a concern.

Anyway, makes me sad to see so many people hoping to move away. I love AB and miss it dearly.

[Enoch Root]

I grew up in Ontario, I'll take Calgary all day, thank you very much.

More to the point though, the grass always looks greener elsewhere, but you eventually realize it isn't. The old saying 'no matter where you go, there you are' rings true for me. The path to happiness is enjoying where you are.

[Ashasx]

For people who have moved or are considering moving, how do you deal with the discrepancy in home prices?

If I were to sell my apartment in Calgary tomorrow, I would lose a ton of money, and anywhere I'd actually consider moving in Canada, the house prices are extremely intimidating. There's a huge gap here that I don't know how I would reconcile.

[Flamenspiel]

This is really just a “grow up and move away thread”. Also, Toronto is a great place to find a job, it sucks otherwise. Basically a New York wannabe, all the horrible city things without the cool stuff.

[Ozy_Flame]

Actually I've been to TO many, many times and every time I go I like it even more. I feel like there is just more for an urbanite like myself.

I can see how it's not for everyone though.

[Flamenspiel]

Originally Posted by calf

How are people feeling about Ontario? Toronto or SW Ontario?

I know Doug Ford's government has many warts, but in comparison to Kenney, how would it be?

There's a less than 1% chance of us leaving Alberta as we need to be close to our parents who aren't moving, but we have lots of family in that region which would make it a bit easier of a transition than BC where we know nobody.

I would give zero thought to Kenny or Ford when moving, that’s just a distraction. If you move to Ontario I would suggest Kingston, certainly not Toronto, that would be a big step back in quality of life after Calgary.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

My solution is to remain in Calgary while building a small second place out in the sunshine coast area... small towb proximate, close enough to civilization that Vancouver is a half day trip, far enough that it's legitimately in the woods. With the normalization of work from home technology this plan is accelerating.

[Locke]

I'm still waiting for my Lichtenstein citizenship papers to be approved.

[starseed]

I'm not sure where the NYC wannabe comment is coming from, but Toronto is an amazing city. I lived and worked downtown for a while, now I commute from the end of the subway line out to the burbs where I work. The traffic is definitely on a different level, but I usually get home in 38-41 minutes despite commuting across the city. I've also got the option of taking the subway if want to sit and read for over an hour each way.

The thing I miss most is access to the mountain Parks. It's something we all take for granted while living in Alberta, but on their own they lift up our quality of life quite a bit.

Toronto itself has everything a foodie could want. The only place I've traveled to where the food was better is Thailand. North American Thai food is just not the same without the local fresh ingredients I guess. Otherwise you can never keep up with the amazing food options available to you. Half the population is foreign-born, so you can imagine just how diverse the food scene is.

Entertainment wise, Toronto always attracts the major acts, usually near the front of the line when a show leaves Broadway. The Canadian opera company puts on great productions at the four seasons center downtown. The escape room companies have the best rooms I've seen, and I have done a lot elsewhere. And it's always fun to go to a Jays game and eat a helmet of ice cream!

It's also not as far to visit Montreal, Boston, NYC, Chicago etc. It's 1:45 to drive to Buffalo in case you cannot ship something to Canada. Niagara has some great wineries if you want to go for a bike tour. (The falls are a ####ty tourist trap).

Overall moving here was the best decision I've made, but I still do love Calgary.

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk

[MarchHare]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

For people who have moved or are considering moving, how do you deal with the discrepancy in home prices?

If I were to sell my apartment in Calgary tomorrow, I would lose a ton of money, and anywhere I'd actually consider moving in Canada, the house prices are extremely intimidating. There's a huge gap here that I don't know how I would reconcile.

This is where I'm at. After 18 years of making my home in this province, I no longer want to live in Alberta. I don't feel like I belong here anymore. My personal values are clearly not shared by a large majority of Alberta's population. For what it's worth, I consider that a "me problem", not a problem with Albertans; as a latte-sipping leftist, I'm the misfit here.

Ideally I'd like to move overseas to somewhere like Japan, The Netherlands, Taiwan, Norway, Singapore, or Denmark, but since I'm not a citizen of any of those countries, that's obviously much harder than moving to another Canadian province (especially so during a pandemic). The problem is I'm a big city guy, so my options to move away from Calgary while staying in Canada are more or less limited to Montreal, Ottawa, Toronto, or Vancouver.

Montreal is an amazing, vibrant, and exciting city, but my wife doesn't speak French (I do), so that would really limit her career options. Ottawa is stale and boring. So that leaves either Toronto or Vancouver. I'd love to move to either of those cities, but the housing price discrepancy is a killer. I'd want to live in a high-density walkable urban area near either city's core (i.e. the Toronto/Vancouver equivalent of Calgary's Beltline, Mission, or Kensington neighbourhoods), but I'd likely be looking at $1M+ for a modestly-sized condo. At age 40, my mortgage is paid off free and clear. I really don't want to take on another $600k or more in debt that I'll be paying off for the next 20+ years (assuming I can even sell my Calgary condo at a break-even price in today's market, never mind selling for a profit).

[Locke]

Originally Posted by starseed

I'm not sure where the NYC wannabe comment is coming from, but Toronto is an amazing city. I lived and worked downtown for a while, now I commute from the end of the subway line out to the burbs where I work. The traffic is definitely on a different level, but I usually get home in 38-41 minutes despite commuting across the city. I've also got the option of taking the subway if want to sit and read for over an hour each way.

The thing I miss most is access to the mountain Parks. It's something we all take for granted while living in Alberta, but on their own they lift up our quality of life quite a bit.

Toronto itself has everything a foodie could want. The only place I've traveled to where the food was better is Thailand. North American Thai food is just not the same without the local fresh ingredients I guess. Otherwise you can never keep up with the amazing food options available to you. Half the population is foreign-born, so you can imagine just how diverse the food scene is.

Entertainment wise, Toronto always attracts the major acts, usually near the front of the line when a show leaves Broadway. The Canadian opera company puts on great productions at the four seasons center downtown. The escape room companies have the best rooms I've seen, and I have done a lot elsewhere. And it's always fun to go to a Jays game and eat a helmet of ice cream!

It's also not as far to visit Montreal, Boston, NYC, Chicago etc. It's 1:45 to drive to Buffalo in case you cannot ship something to Canada. Niagara has some great wineries if you want to go for a bike tour. (The falls are a ####ty tourist trap).

Overall moving here was the best decision I've made, but I still do love Calgary.

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk

That should be on the Brochures and all signs entering the City.

"Toronto! We are the Center of the Universe, but in case thats not enough for you we're also 1:45 Drive to Buffalo...."

[Locke]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

This is where I'm at. After 18 years of making my home in this province, I no longer want to live in Alberta. I don't feel like I belong here anymore. My personal values are clearly not shared by a large majority of Alberta's population. For what it's worth, I consider that a "me problem", not a problem with Albertans; as a latte-sipping leftist, I'm the misfit here.

Ideally I'd like to move overseas to somewhere like Japan, The Netherlands, Taiwan, Norway, Singapore, or Denmark, but since I'm not a citizen of any of those countries, that's obviously much harder than moving to another Canadian province (especially so during a pandemic). The problem is I'm a big city guy, so my options to move away from Calgary while staying in Canada are more or less limited to Montreal, Ottawa, Toronto, or Vancouver.

Montreal is an amazing, vibrant, and exciting city, but my wife doesn't speak French (I do), so that would really limit her career options. Ottawa is stale and boring. So that leaves either Toronto or Vancouver. I'd love to move to either of those cities, but the housing price discrepancy is a killer. I'd want to live in a high-density walkable urban area near either city's core (i.e. the Toronto/Vancouver equivalent of Calgary's Beltline, Mission, or Kensington neighbourhoods), but I'd likely be looking at $1M+ for a modestly-sized condo. At age 40, my mortgage is paid off free and clear. I really don't want to take on another $600k or more in debt that I'll be paying off for the next 20+ years (assuming I can even sell my Calgary condo at a break-even price in today's market, never mind selling for a profit).

Okay, anecdotal but funny because I just had this conversation with a new client who just moved here from Ottawa.

They were amazed at Calgary, they said it was like 'another world.'

Um...we're not 'another world'....Ottawa is. That place is like living in a domed Time Capsule removed from the rest of the world or something.

Anyone who has been to Ottawa can tell within 15 seconds of being in that City that something is really weird about it.

[starseed]

Haha it's only to get around laws that prevent companies from shipping goods to Canada that... Haven't been approved by health Canada yet...

Otherwise Buffalo is not a great place to visit. I think the last time I went was for the Garth Brooks tour.

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[Cecil Terwilliger]

Kelowna is a hotspot these days. Some of the best weather in the country, fast growing, big enough to have most amenities but small enough it’s not a major city yet, tons of outdoor stuff to do, summer and winter.

It really is a great place to live and everyone here seems to love it.

But, since it’s growing at such a fast rate, traffic is becoming an issue, house prices are getting ridiculous, not TO or Vancouver bad but a SFH has probably gone up almost 50% in the last decade.

However the job market can still be somewhat limiting, depending on your industry. There’s not a lot of corporate jobs out here the way there is in a big city like Calgary. If you work in an industry that does have jobs out here and you don’t mind buying in a sellers market, then it’s a wonderful place to live.

Except the city planners were all drunk when they designed this place. I hate the layout of everything.