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Old 10-19-2020, 01:05 PM   #301
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Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
It is the frequency of the violence - Frankopan states the historical records shows that with the civilizations of the east, after the violence there were prolonged (or longer in comparison to the western world) of peace. It's in his book - more examples and more explanation with citations so perhaps you would enjoy the read (and different perspective).
I'm not disputing that Europe had fewer periods of peace than Asia. I'm pointing out that there were prolonged periods of peace in Eastern civilizations because states were more centralized and their hierarchies were locked down. The more powerful and autocratic the state, the less internal violence there is in a society. It's not a matter of culture or morality.

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In the East with the silk roads trade and exchange were carried out amongst differing cultures.
And those trade routes were notoriously plagued with lawlessness and banditry once they passed out of sight of a city. One of the reasons goods that passed between Europe and East Asia were so valuable is because of the extraordinary danger involved in the commerce.

And where do the Mongols, Turks, etc. fit into this peaceful exchange among different cultures? The Mongol invasions of China and the Middle East were, on a per capita basis, the most bloody episodes man has ever inflicted on man, and Asia has been the locale of most of the worst violent catastrophes in history.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o..._by_death_toll


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-PS: those crusaders were not gallant knights fighting for their faith (as described) rather low lifes, that had no prospects and were looking for some redemption or getting absolved from their crimes.
I never suggested the crusaders were gallant knights. They were mostly brutes looking for land and loot. That doesn't make the people they were fighting noble - after all, they had conquered that same patch of territory only a few generations before. Is religious jihad a more honourable motive for conquest and subjugation than larceny?

The more we try to turn history into a morality play, the less we understand. Humans don't conquer and massacre and enslave because their particular culture is morally tainted. They conquer and massacre and enslave because they're humans.

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The carnage they wrought was unique.
Unique in what way? That strip of land, the Levant, has been conquered (with all the massacre, rape, and despoliation that entails) by Assyrians, Hittites, Israelites, Egyptians, the Sea Peoples, Babylonians, Persians, Greeks, Romans, Sassanids, Arabs, and Ottomans.
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Old 10-20-2020, 05:55 PM   #302
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As I'm sure you can appreciate it is difficult to discuss complex historical issues and be concise, especially considering Frankopan's book is roughly 650 pages. So for brevity I'll add this video which covers a lot of the ideas he was writing about but try and address your questions as well.

For me, being born, raised and educated in the west I had a lot of the assumptions and biases Frankopan discusses in that video.

The west inheirited the tradition of greeks, romans and all these other civilisations were static.

This was not what I was taught. I never learned about non European sources and their perspectives. Perhaps you did but for those that had similar education to me it may be a similar shock to learn history from the others pov.



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I'm not disputing that Europe had fewer periods of peace than Asia. I'm pointing out that there were prolonged periods of peace in Eastern civilizations because states were more centralized and their hierarchies were locked down. The more powerful and autocratic the state, the less internal violence there is in a society. It's not a matter of culture or morality.
You seem to imply that the west (which at times were ruled by kingdoms and churches) were not autocratic and locked down. How is it that only eastern civilizations with their monarchies were autocratic and had less internal violence? Curious as to why the difference?


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And those trade routes were notoriously plagued with lawlessness and banditry once they passed out of sight of a city. One of the reasons goods that passed between Europe and East Asia were so valuable is because of the extraordinary danger involved in the commerce.
Sure there were bandits that tried to pull heists on caravans but that is not even in the same universe let alone ballpark for the state sponsored theft by Europeans (not all drawn from Frankopan below). Also, I am of belief it was the scarcity & quality of the goods that reflected in the price and not so much the danger to get it to the west.

When Columbus (he was trying to be a crusader himself but ended up in the Americas) and his sailors came ashore, carrying swords, speaking oddly, the Arawaks ran to greet them, brought them food, water, gifts. He later wrote of this in his log:

They ... brought us parrots and balls of cotton and spears and many other things, which they exchanged for the glass beads and hawks' bells. They willingly traded everything they owned (yet europeans felt they could kill them and just take it)... . They were well-built, with good bodies and handsome features.... They do not bear arms, and do not know them, for I showed them a sword, they took it by the edge and cut themselves out of ignorance. They have no iron. Their spears are made of cane... . They would make fine servants.... With fifty men we could subjugate them all and make them do whatever we want.

Las Casas tells how the Spaniards "grew more conceited every day" and after a while refused to walk any distance. They "rode the backs of Indians if they were in a hurry" or were carried on hammocks by Indians running in relays. "In this case they also had Indians carry large leaves to shade them from the sun and others to fan them with goose wings."

Total control led to total cruelty. The Spaniards "thought nothing of knifing Indians by tens and twenties and of cutting slices off them to test the sharpness of their blades." Las Casas tells how "two of these so-called Christians met two Indian boys one day, each carrying a parrot; they took the parrots and for fun beheaded the boys."

What did people in Spain get out of all that death and brutality visited on the Indians of the Americas? For a brief period in history, there was the glory of a Spanish Empire in the Western Hemisphere. As Hans Koning sums it up in his book Columbus: His Enterprise:

For all the gold and silver stolen and shipped to Spain did not make the Spanish people richer. It gave their kings an edge in the balance of power for a time, a chance to hire more mercenary soldiers for their wars. They ended up losing those wars anyway, and all that was left was a deadly inflation, a starving population, the rich richer, the poor poorer, and a ruined peasant class.

Europeans in North America?
So the English set fire to the wigwams of the village. By their own account: "The Captain also said, We must Burn Them; and immediately stepping into the Wigwam ... brought out a Fire Brand, and putting it into the Matts with which they were covered, set the Wigwams on Fire." William Bradford, in his History of the Plymouth Plantation written at the time, describes John Mason's raid on the Pequot village:

Those that scaped the fire were slaine with the sword; some hewed to peeces, others rune throw with their rapiers, so as they were quickly dispatchte, and very few escaped. It was conceived they thus destroyed about 400 at this time. It was a fearful sight to see them thus frying in the fyer, and the streams of blood quenching the same, and horrible was the stincke and sente there of, but the victory seemed a sweete sacrifice, and they gave the prayers thereof to God, who had wrought so wonderfully for them, thus to inclose their enemise in their hands, and give them so speedy a victory over so proud and insulting an enimie.

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And where do the Mongols, Turks, etc. fit into this peaceful exchange among different cultures? The Mongol invasions of China and the Middle East were, on a per capita basis, the most bloody episodes man has ever inflicted on man, and Asia has been the locale of most of the worst violent catastrophes in history.
I never wrote peaceful exchange (not sure if you're being sarcastic) but what I did state from Frankopan was even the Mongols used co-operation and compromise to sustain their central command. Yes they were brutal but seemingly unlike Europeans there was long periods of peace.

Also from previous post the state sponsored theft allowed more spices, silks and goods to be purchased from the Turks etc.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o..._by_death_toll

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I never suggested the crusaders were gallant knights. They were mostly brutes looking for land and loot. That doesn't make the people they were fighting noble - after all, they had conquered that same patch of territory only a few generations before. Is religious jihad a more honourable motive for conquest and subjugation than larceny?
Very large topic so again I'll take the easy way out and leave it up to the historian who wrote the book for



Looking for land and loot?
Foucher de Chartres (c. 1059 – c. 1128 A.D.) was a priest and participated in the First Crusade and he wrote a chronicle of it in Latin; he participated in the massacre of Jerusalem; he writes the following: (... Some Arabs fled and sought refuge in the Tower of David and the Temple of the Lord built by Solomon, but they were savagely attacked and brutally murdered by our men; they were not spared the swords of our men; one's feet and ankles sank into pools of blood of slaughtered people; no one was spared, even women and children; our infantry and cavaliers ripped open the bellies of the corpses of Muslims to see if they deceived them by swallowing gold coins or not while they were alive! Many corpses were gathered, burned, and turned into ashes by those who seek gold coins ... No one was spared from being massacred even those who implored for mercy; all Arabs of Jerusalem were put to death ... After the massacre, our men robbed all the houses ... Many of the penniless men became rich by confiscating houses and all possessions found in them ...).

The anonymous author of the book about the First Crusade titled "The Deeds of the Franks", or Gesta Francorum in Latin, writes the following: (... Our men chased the infidels and massacred them until they reached the Temple of Solomon; the massacre committed in the Temple was so violent and savage that our men waded up to their ankles in blood ... The Temple was flooded by the blood of massacred Arabs ... Muslim men and women who sought refuge in the roof of the Temple were beheaded by the swords of our men; some Arabs threw themselves from the roof and fell dead ... Our men held a council and they were commanded to pay alms and to pray to the Lord God to make Him choose the king of Jerusalem ... they were commanded to throw all corpses of Arabs outside Jerusalem as the stink was frightening; all streets of Jerusalem were filled with corpses .... The corpses were piled in huge heaps as big as houses ... No one saw or heard of such a number of corpses of the heathens; the heaps were like pyramids; they were burned outside Jerusalem ... No one, except the Lord God, knows their number ...).

(... women were killed by being stabbed with swords and spears; babies were snatched by their legs from the breasts of their mothers to be thrown from the walls or to have their heads smashed by pillars ...).


The more we try to turn history into a morality play, the less we understand. Humans don't conquer and massacre and enslave because their particular culture is morally tainted. They conquer and massacre and enslave because they're humans.

Nobility? Morality?

When the Crusaders inside Jerusalem realized the fact that the military troops led by Saladin were about to attack Jerusalem, they requested safety, security, and negotiations; this meant they surrendered and gave the city to Saladin in return for their leaving the city in peace; when Saladin heard this offer from a delegation of Crusaders, at first, he refused as he desired to take revenge against them since they massacred most dwellers of Jerusalem and enslaved many women and children when they conquered Jerusalem.

There were 60000 European men in Jerusalem and so many women and children; all of them left Jerusalem, along with their precious possessions and money, in peace and security. A wealthy woman among the Crusaders had huge loads of precious stones and jewels and many servants, gentlewomen, and male and female slaves; she requested peace and security from the Arabs under Saladin to leave the city along with her possessions and people; she was escorted by Arab soldiers in peace out of Jerusalem and no one dared to attack or rob her. The great patriarch of the Crusaders went out of Jerusalem along with his wealth, huge amounts of money, and Saladin and his men never confiscated anything from the patriarch, despite his advisors who urged Saladin to confiscate such money; Saladin insisted on never to act treacherously against any of the Crusaders who left Jerusalem; his men took the 10 dinars from the patriarch and he left in peace within a caravan of his men protected by Saladin's soldiers until the caravan of the patriarch reached Tyre. Many of the penniless men and women among Crusaders were pardoned and allowed to leave (along with their children) without paying the tribute to the Arabs after they implored Saladin for mercy. The daughters of rulers left Jerusalem in peace along with their caravans of possessions, servants, and male and female slaves.

After Sultan al-Kamil defeated the Franks during the Crusades, Oliverus Scholasticus praised the Islamic laws of war, commenting on how al-Kamil supplied the defeated Frankish army with food:[72]

Who could doubt that such goodness, friendship and charity come from God? Men whose parents, sons and daughters, brothers and sisters, had died in agony at our hands, whose lands we took, whom we drove naked from their homes, revived us with their own food when we were dying of hunger and showered us with kindness even when we were in their power.[51]

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Unique in what way? That strip of land, the Levant, has been conquered (with all the massacre, rape, and despoliation that entails) by Assyrians, Hittites, Israelites, Egyptians, the Sea Peoples, Babylonians, Persians, Greeks, Romans, Sassanids, Arabs, and Ottomans.
Well all those civilizations you listed who fought and brutally killed in the Levant lived in close proximity. The crusaders came from a call from their christian brothers in the east but killed them too!

The very first group of the soldiers of the Popular Crusade was led by Walter the Penniless (orWalter Sans Avoir ); he led his followers, who were mostly peasants, and they began looting and stealing in Bulgaria, but Bulgarian soldiers resisted them; the soldiers/peasants led by Walter the Penniless entered into Hungary and continued robbing and killing the Christians there and they marched until they reached the walls of Constantinople in July, 1069 A.D. The Byzantine emperor, Alexios I, allowed them to wait by the walls of Constantinople to wait for the troops led by Peter the Hermit.

The troops led by Peter the Hermit did not differ from the groups led by Walter the Penniless in terms of formation and unruliness; his soldiers had insatiable desire for looting, pillaging, destroying, and massacring. The troops of Peter the Hermit, about 40000 persons, consisted ont criminals, unemployed, prostitutes, poor peasants, and some cavaliers on horseback. On their way to Constantinople, the troops of Peter the Hermit attacked a Hungarian Christian city, Semlin, which was located within the borders with the Byzantine empire. The massacre of Semlin was instigated by peter the Hermit; 4000 people were killed in this city and the villages around it. Another massacre was committed in the city of Nish (in today's Serbia).

Not to mention the jews they killed in Rhineland on the way (or the muslims in the holy land).

But sure, those other groups brutally killed too, women & children I'm sure. So that's not really unique. How about the cannibalism?

In Ma’arra our troops boiled pagan adults in cooking pots; they impaled children on spits# and devoured them grilled.

– Confession by Franjish chronicler Radulph of Caen


Some sources claim that there were other cases of cannibalism during the First Crusade, which the article is quite supportive of. Several later chronicles, including William of Tyre, place acts of cannibalism at Antioch and there is some contemporary mention of the need to avoid cannibalism during the siege.

It's just the total depravity and sheer frequency of that depravity that is consistent with wherever Europeans encountered the other.
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Old 10-20-2020, 06:40 PM   #303
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The Turko Mongol conquests killed 11% of the earths population, nothing we did came close to that until the 20th century
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Old 10-20-2020, 07:48 PM   #304
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The Turko Mongol conquests killed 11% of the earths population, nothing we did came close to that until the 20th century
Some estimates from American sources say that the allies wiped out 20% of the North Korean civilian population. And we wonder why they could be so indoctrinated to hate us. It was basically a bunch of WW2 vets taking out their Japanese hatred on Koreans because they look somewhat similar to white people.

It's not the world's population, but within that region, it was pretty bad.
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Old 10-20-2020, 09:42 PM   #305
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Some estimates from American sources say that the allies wiped out 20% of the North Korean civilian population. And we wonder why they could be so indoctrinated to hate us. It was basically a bunch of WW2 vets taking out their Japanese hatred on Koreans because they look somewhat similar to white people.

It's not the world's population, but within that region, it was pretty bad.
North Koreans dont hate you, they are taught that you need their help. They pity you. They are happy people singing and dancing while you have nothing. Kim Il-Sung is God.

Plus it was a UN mission!!!!
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Old 10-21-2020, 08:06 AM   #306
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As I'm sure you can appreciate it is difficult to discuss complex historical issues and be concise, especially considering Frankopan's book is roughly 650 pages.
Silk Roads was on my reading list, but I removed it after some lukewarm reviews on Goodreads. I might have to sign it out from the library.

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This was not what I was taught. I never learned about non European sources and their perspectives. Perhaps you did but for those that had similar education to me it may be a similar shock to learn history from the others pov.
There's value to reading history that flips traditional narratives on their head (though a chauvinistically Western take on history hasn't been the default for at least 40 years). But even better than learning our familiar history from a non-Western POV is to learn history where the West isn't even involved. Like China's repeated efforts to subjugate Vietnam. Or the Mongol invasions of the Middle East. Or the successive waves of invasion of India from Persia and the steppes.

The merit of learning about history that doesn't involve the West is it removes the temptation to fit history into a narrative of us vs them / oppressors vs victims.

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You seem to imply that the west (which at times were ruled by kingdoms and churches) were not autocratic and locked down. How is it that only eastern civilizations with their monarchies were autocratic and had less internal violence? Curious as to why the difference?
Western rulers were just as autocratic when they had the opportunity. But as I said, the last time Europe was unified under a single ruler was during the Pax Romana - which was a very peaceful time. Since then it has never been unified, so war was common.

China, on the other hand, has mostly been unified, with no powerful neighbours besides the Mongols and other people of the steppes, which I've already mentioned. That unity meant stronger central control, and fewer periods of internal violence. When that unity broke down, such as during the era of the Three Kingdoms, China was a bloodbath.

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When Columbus (he was trying to be a crusader himself but ended up in the Americas) and his sailors came ashore, carrying swords, speaking oddly, the Arawaks ran to greet them, brought them food, water, gifts. He later wrote of this in his log:
Now read about how the Aztecs rose to power, and the means by which they maintained their subjugation of neighbouring peoples. There's a reason why virtually all of them enthusiastically joined the Spanish - to the extent that the overthrow of the Aztecs could reasonably be characterized as an uprising by their subject states.

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What did people in Spain get out of all that death and brutality visited on the Indians of the Americas?
What do invaders ever get? Loot, pillage, rape, domination, land. For some, the crude excitement of violence itself.

The conquistadors were largely freelancing. They defied the orders of the governor in Hispanola and the monarch in Spain. Their brutal excesses were reported to crown and church, and investigations launched against the perpetrators, though little came of them.

And asking what 'the people of Spain' got out of it is anachronistic. Spain in 1492 was not a modern state. Nobody would have even thought to ask the question of what the average person in Galicia or Castile got out of the conquest of the New World. They were irrelevant. Just as the great mass of peasantry were irrelevant to the military and commercial expeditions of China, Persia, the Ottomans, etc.

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Well all those civilizations you listed who fought and brutally killed in the Levant lived in close proximity. The crusaders came from a call from their christian brothers in the east but killed them too!

I don't see how proximity is relevant (though Persepolis is hardly in close proximity to Jerusalem, and for that matter the Pyrenes are a good long way from Medina). To the poor bastards living in the Levant, it made no difference if the people who conquered them were from Anatolia, France, or the Arabian peninsula.

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It's just the total depravity and sheer frequency of that depravity that is consistent with wherever Europeans encountered the other.
That's a political narrative, not an empirical historical truth.

Your eyes have been opened by your recent readings. Westerners have done many hideous deeds. Now take the next step and educate yourself about the rest of the world. Brutality and violence are endemic to human experience. It's tempting to draw moral narratives out of that sea of violence, but the reality is we're pretty ugly at the species level.

Anyway, we've strayed pretty far from the subject of this thread. I could have sworn there was a world history thread on this forum, but I couldn't find it. Anyone who wants to bat these issues around more might want to create one.
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Old 10-30-2020, 11:37 AM   #307
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Police, definitely reformable in their current state.

https://twitter.com/user/status/1322177153727942657
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Old 10-30-2020, 11:55 AM   #308
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Good grief. The quote from the FOP....


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“This lost child was wandering around barefoot during the violent riots in Philadelphia. The only thing this Philly police officer cared about was protecting this child,” the FOP tweet reads. “We are not your enemy. We are the Thin Blue Line. WE ARE the only thing standing between Order & Anarchy.”

Yeah thin blue line indeed.
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Old 10-31-2020, 12:36 AM   #309
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What a peice of ####...
https://www.yahoo.com/news/officer-s...033232641.html
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"An officer involved in the fatal shooting of Breonna Taylor has filed a civil suit against the 26-year-old's boyfriend for emotional distress, assault and battery on the night she was killed. The lawsuit claims Louisville Sergeant Jonathan Mattingly experienced "severe trauma, mental anguish, and emotional distress" because of Kenneth Walker's actions on March 13."
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Old 10-31-2020, 12:48 AM   #310
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Those who died are justified
For wearing the badge
They're the chosen whites

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Old 10-31-2020, 02:48 AM   #311
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Best cowbell ever!!!
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Old 01-05-2021, 07:41 PM   #312
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None of the officers will be charged in the shooting of Jason Blake. Also reading on Twitter that the national guard is being deployed to Kenosha.

https://twitter.com/user/status/1346568982275436546

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Old 01-05-2021, 07:45 PM   #313
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None of the officers will be charged in the killing of Jason Blake. Also reading on Twitter that the national guard is being deployed to Kenosha.
He actually survived, albeit it with grave life-altering injuries.

That's pretty shocking that they weren't charged.
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Old 01-05-2021, 08:45 PM   #314
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Nm
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Old 01-05-2021, 08:46 PM   #315
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He actually survived, albeit it with grave life-altering injuries.

That's pretty shocking that they weren't charged.
I watched the District Attorney’s press conference. He laid out, in great detail, why there wasn’t much chance of getting a conviction. Basically:

1. There was a domestic violence complaint.
2. There was a felony warrant that required the cops to make an arrest.
3. Blake did not have permission to operate the vehicle he was trying to get in.
4. Blake had a knife and turned towards the officer who shot him.
5. Multiple taser shots failed to stop him.
6. Blake had a previous incident where he pulled a knife on a cop. This hurts the credibility of his defence that he wasn’t attempting to use it.
7. The cop said he stopped shooting when Blake dropped the knife, and the threat ended, as he was trained to do. There were bullets left in the magazine, which helps his argument. When someone shoots to kill they empty the magazine.


The D.A. said this was enough to prove the shooter acted in self defence.
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Old 01-22-2021, 09:28 AM   #316
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Wasn't sure where to put this, but this seems most relevant to topics in this thread.

In the past week, Red Deer has introduced a Social Diversion Team to aid police response.

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The City of Red Deer has partnered with Safe Harbour Society for a new, one-year pilot project aimed at helping local individuals in distress.

...

This means Red Deerians are now asked to call 2-1-1 and press 2 if they see someone that needs non-emergency support, such as someone experiencing mental health issues, addictions crisis or homelessness.

...

City officials say the two teams of two that make up the Social Diversion Team pairs a Licensed Practical Nurse with a Social Diversion Specialist, and together, they will respond to reports of individuals in distress. The team can connect people with the social services they need, such as housing supports, mental health supports, detox programs and harm reduction resources.
https://rdnewsnow.com/2021/01/20/red...pond-to-calls/

I'm not sure this officially counts as defunding the police, but even as a pilot program it looks like a step towards that direction.
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Old 01-22-2021, 05:03 PM   #317
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I have weight in heavily on the defund the police topic, but I think that is great news. Actually trying to do something different than a status quo nobody is happy with, what a wonderful idea.
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Old 01-25-2021, 12:52 PM   #318
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Wasn't sure where to put this, but this seems most relevant to topics in this thread.

In the past week, Red Deer has introduced a Social Diversion Team to aid police response.



https://rdnewsnow.com/2021/01/20/red...pond-to-calls/

I'm not sure this officially counts as defunding the police, but even as a pilot program it looks like a step towards that direction.
i think Red Deer is a great place to test these ideas
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Old 06-21-2021, 07:49 AM   #319
GirlySports
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I don't understand this story.

https://globalnews.ca/news/7955023/c...lack-yearbook/

Didn't the students put this together? To me it seems like a good thing to bring awareness. What am I missing?
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Old 06-21-2021, 08:59 AM   #320
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GirlySports View Post
I don't understand this story.

https://globalnews.ca/news/7955023/c...lack-yearbook/

Didn't the students put this together? To me it seems like a good thing to bring awareness. What am I missing?
The article isn’t clear whether any black students were involved with creating the page. It looks like tokenism. Like, “hey here’s some black people”. It could definitely be done in a way that’s more inclusive.
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