Calgarypuck Forums - The Unofficial Calgary Flames Fan Community

Go Back   Calgarypuck Forums - The Unofficial Calgary Flames Fan Community > Event Forums > COVID-19 Forum
Ivrnet

View Poll Results: Are you sending your kid(s) back to school?
Yes 102 61.08%
No - we are choosing the home/hub option 36 21.56%
Undecided 29 17.37%
Voters: 167. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 08-12-2020, 12:51 AM   #41
WinnipegFan
Crash and Bang Winger
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CliffFletcher View Post
No, most won't.
That is all American research. If you know anything about education in the two countries the research rarely translates here. It also says nothing about catching up. It says they are behind, there is no research into catching up because this has never happened. So I am using a career worth of experience working with kids who, when given the support, can make multiple years progress in a single year in a particular area. You are grossly exaggerating if you think kids have fallen massively behind. They are behind but no where near to the extent the fear mongering is attempting to lay out.
WinnipegFan is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to WinnipegFan For This Useful Post:
Old 08-12-2020, 01:04 AM   #42
WinnipegFan
Crash and Bang Winger
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Exp:
Default

To be honest there is no perfect answer. The HUB offers a consistent scenario and I think it should be the go to for high schools. I thought it would be a good idea to get high school kids online, then use the larger buildings to house the JHS and elementary students with greater ability to distance. There is no logical way to meet the standards set now by Hinshaw in a high school. It is impossible without staggering. The 14 day disruption when the expected cases show up will be brutal on kids in the school as they are not able to access HUB, they can’t go back and forth. One case of Covid at a school with a full timetable means minimum 120 likely more like 160 kids are home for 10-14 days, and 4 teachers as well. Let alone if another case come up. The HUB is at least consistent.

Again my biggest fear is the unknown impact on kids that test positive and will own the fallout even though they shouldn’t. I can’t imagine the kid walking into my office who brought Covid to school and anyone suffered serious side effects. These kids own everything and it takes a lot of work to get them to let go of far lesser events. There is a cost that keeps getting floated about not sending kids, the costs of sending them are fully unknown but we do have a lot of evidence about potential implications by looking around the globe.

Oh and it is my career that would hit the brakes for my kids health not wife’s so I guess I am the 1/10. I think that was a pretty ignorant comment.

Last edited by WinnipegFan; 08-12-2020 at 01:06 AM.
WinnipegFan is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to WinnipegFan For This Useful Post:
Old 08-12-2020, 02:58 AM   #43
DeluxeMoustache
 
DeluxeMoustache's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by WinnipegFan View Post
That is all American research. If you know anything about education in the two countries the research rarely translates here. It also says nothing about catching up. It says they are behind, there is no research into catching up because this has never happened. So I am using a career worth of experience working with kids who, when given the support, can make multiple years progress in a single year in a particular area. You are grossly exaggerating if you think kids have fallen massively behind. They are behind but no where near to the extent the fear mongering is attempting to lay out.

This is interesting to me.

Kids are spoon fed information at a rate they (on average) are able and expected to absorb, generally in a group setting, with as much individual time as a busy teacher can muster.

To think that an eight year old going in to grade 3, who has physically and mentally developed, and has perhaps missed a bit of grade 2, can’t catch up to where they are supposed to be, which is on a slow pace that must cater to group learning and lowest common denominator.. I have trouble seeing the long lasting devastation to their potential being represented from the fear mongerers.

Kids learn a lot every day, and use some of the structure from school, when available, but their learning doesn’t stagnate when school stops.

What do people think they do in terms of brain development with the ~18 hours of a day they aren’t in school?
DeluxeMoustache is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to DeluxeMoustache For This Useful Post:
Old 08-12-2020, 03:03 AM   #44
DeluxeMoustache
 
DeluxeMoustache's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Exp:
Default

Didn’t see it mentioned here, but BC is pushing back school start.

https://bc.ctvnews.ca/mobile/start-o...says-1.5060096

Quote:
The start of B.C.'s upcoming school year is being pushed back to a yet-undecided date, Education Minister Rob Fleming revealed Tuesday.
Speaking to reporters from the provincial legislature, Fleming said teachers and staff will need some time on school grounds without students present to ensure they're properly implementing the pandemic guidelines put out by the B.C. Centre for Disease Control.
DeluxeMoustache is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to DeluxeMoustache For This Useful Post:
Old 08-12-2020, 08:06 AM   #45
Scroopy Noopers
Pent-up
 
Scroopy Noopers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Ontario, on my backhand.
Exp:
Default

I didn’t even take school seriously until I was 25. Worked out okay.

It isn’t the end of the world. Obviously providing ongoing education to our youth is one of the most important things in our society... but the sky isn’t falling here one way or the other.
Scroopy Noopers is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-2020, 08:22 AM   #46
CliffFletcher
Franchise Player
 
Join Date: May 2006
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by WinnipegFan View Post
There is a cost that keeps getting floated about not sending kids, the costs of sending them are fully unknown but we do have a lot of evidence about potential implications by looking around the globe.
The weight of evidence shows opening school is typically not a source of major outbreaks. We have the case of a school-based upsurge in one country - Israel. Against that, we have opening in Germany, Denmark, Australia, the Netherlands, and a half-dozen other countries that did not spark community upsurges in infection rates. It should also be noted that the outbreaks in Israel happened in high schools, and confirm that older teenagers are more likely than younger children to spread Covid. Israel also mandated nation-wide schools openings, without regard to local infection rates. That's not the approach Canada is taking.

You're a teacher. But your comments here are anecdotal. And like the rest of us, you're subject to intuitions and emotional biases. That's the whole reason we defer to experts on matters of public health - to make policy decisions grounded in empiricism and large-scale utilitarian effects, not individual emotional responses.

Any parent or educator who doesn't know that children pass Covid at much lower rates than they pay the flu, and at much lower rates than adults pass Covid, is ignorant of the science. Sorry if that sounds means. But it's no more mean of an observation that pointing out that someone who doesn't realize masks protect against of the virus is ignorant of the science.

From today's NYT:

Quote:
We’re so used to thinking of snotty-nosed kids as germ propagators. But that’s just not how Covid-19 works.

But we have known for months that the coronavirus does not act like normal cough and cold viruses that we often catch from children. In a surprise to pediatricians, teachers and parents alike, the virus behaves the opposite of what we are used to. Children and adolescents do not seem to get sick with Covid-19 as frequently as adults. And children, especially elementary school-aged children, do not seem to transmit it effectively to one another, nor to adults.

This has been documented in countries around the world, including Greece, Switzerland and Australia. Even when schools are open, most children who get ill are found to have been infected by someone in their household, not from a school contact.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by fotze View Post
If this day gets you riled up, you obviously aren't numb to the disappointment yet to be a real fan.

Last edited by CliffFletcher; 08-12-2020 at 08:35 AM.
CliffFletcher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-2020, 08:35 AM   #47
WinnipegFan
Crash and Bang Winger
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CliffFletcher View Post
The weight of evidence shows opening school is typically not a source of major outbreaks. We have the case of a school-based upsurge in one country - Israel. Against that, we have opening in Germany, Denmark, Australia, the Netherlands, and a half-dozen other countries that did not spark community upsurges in infection rates. It should also be noted that the outbreaks in Israel happened in high schools, and confirm that older teenagers are more likely than younger children to spread Covid.

You're a teacher. But your comments here are anecdotal. And like the rest of us, you're subject to intuitions and emotional biases. That's the whole reason we defer to experts on matters of public health - to make policy decisions grounded in empiricism and large-scale utilitarian effects, not individual emotional responses.

Any parent or educator who doesn't know that children pass Covid at much lower rates than they pay the flu, and at much lower rates than adults pass Covid, is ignorant of the science. Sorry if that sounds means. But it's no more mean of an observation that pointing out that someone who doesn't realize masks protect against of the virus is ignorant of the science.

From today's NYT:
Have you read the plans and interventions in place in those countries? You say this all with such confidence but you cherry pick your research. We donít know I can find just as many random articles that say the opposite:

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.nyti...ldren.amp.html

This from July 30ths NYT.
WinnipegFan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-2020, 08:40 AM   #48
GGG
Franchise Player
 
GGG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by WinnipegFan View Post
Oh and it is my career that would hit the brakes for my kids health not wifeís so I guess I am the 1/10. I think that was a pretty ignorant comment.
Itís not an ignorant comment for you to be in the minority. There is a lot of research out there on the Salary and Promotional hit that women take in their late 20ís and early 30ís relative to men as the result of raising children or the fear of employers that women will be raising children.

It is logical to assume that women will be disproportionately affected in terms of income, hours of work, and future promotions then men will be. Just because you donít match the majority in this case isnít ignorant.
GGG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-2020, 08:55 AM   #49
CliffFletcher
Franchise Player
 
Join Date: May 2006
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by WinnipegFan View Post
Have you read the plans and interventions in place in those countries? You say this all with such confidence but you cherry pick your research. We donít know I can find just as many random articles that say the opposite:

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.nyti...ldren.amp.html

This from July 30ths NYT.
They can carry the virus at high levels. Not transmit it. Find me one study that shows children transmit Covid-19 at the same rate as adults.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by fotze View Post
If this day gets you riled up, you obviously aren't numb to the disappointment yet to be a real fan.
CliffFletcher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-2020, 09:07 AM   #50
WinnipegFan
Crash and Bang Winger
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CliffFletcher View Post
They can carry the virus at high levels. Not transmit it. Find me one study that shows children transmit Covid-19 at the same rate as adults.
https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/corona...says-1.5048666

260 Kids infected at a sleep over camp.

Our own Catholic system with social distancing, masks, and all the precautions had one 3 kids of 15 infected that small sample size is 20% transmission.

Australia has dozens of schools shut down due to outbreaks:
https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/202.../vsch-j27.html

I think what you are misinterpreting is that I am against sending kids back. I am not. I am against sending kids back with a lack of a plan. We don't have one. How is not more logical to start at Stage 2 and see if it works and progress to Stage 1? Look at Ontario they are spending millions and millions to make their schools safe. B.C. is delaying opening due to the growing evidence and need to adjust the plan. Not here, we weren't going to even have masks until the public rampage. Hinshaw as much said she was being ignored when asked about schools before masking was made mandatory and all she could say is she continued to recommend masks in public places where distancing wasn't available.

Last edited by WinnipegFan; 08-12-2020 at 09:09 AM.
WinnipegFan is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to WinnipegFan For This Useful Post:
Old 08-12-2020, 09:14 AM   #51
Scroopy Noopers
Pent-up
 
Scroopy Noopers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Ontario, on my backhand.
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CliffFletcher View Post
They can carry the virus at high levels. Not transmit it. Find me one study that shows children transmit Covid-19 at the same rate as adults.
Article here: https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/corona...inds-1.5030231
Quote:
Children over age 10 spread COVID-19 as much as adults, study finds
Actual study here: https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/10/20-1315_article
Quote:

We showed that household transmission of SARS-CoV-2 was high if the index patient was 10Ė19 years of age.
Scroopy Noopers is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-2020, 11:22 AM   #52
RyZ
First Line Centre
 
RyZ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Exp:
Default

My wife runs a small dayhome for a number of other families we know so she is constantly in close contact with a pretty large pool of parents with young kids and she told me last night that she doesnt know anybody that is keeping their kids home.

I thought the number of people staying home would be larger, but it looks like the overwhelming majority of parents are sending the kids back to school.
RyZ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-2020, 11:31 AM   #53
CliffFletcher
Franchise Player
 
Join Date: May 2006
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scroopy Noopers View Post
Thanks. Lumping 10-19 year olds together is questionable. We know people who are 15-17 have close to adult rates of transmission (and those aged 18-19 are adults). Which is why health experts are not recommending universities open, and there's less confidence about opening high schools than younger grades.

And from the study:

Quote:
Our observation has several limitations. First, the number of cases might have been underestimated because all asymptomatic patients might not have been identified. In addition, detected cases could have resulted from exposure outside the household. Second, given the different thresholds for testing policy between households and nonhousehold contacts, we cannot assess the true difference in transmissibility between households and nonhouseholds.
So yes - there is a study. But as with science in general, I'm going to go with the weight of evidence and the recommendations of experts.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by fotze View Post
If this day gets you riled up, you obviously aren't numb to the disappointment yet to be a real fan.
CliffFletcher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-2020, 11:36 AM   #54
DeluxeMoustache
 
DeluxeMoustache's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RyZ View Post
My wife runs a small dayhome for a number of other families we know so she is constantly in close contact with a pretty large pool of parents with young kids and she told me last night that she doesnt know anybody that is keeping their kids home.

I thought the number of people staying home would be larger, but it looks like the overwhelming majority of parents are sending the kids back to school.

Are you saying that the parents who are sending their kids to day homes now are planning on sending their kids to school?

I would caution on extrapolating a sample size where everyone has something similar and almost predictive in common
DeluxeMoustache is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to DeluxeMoustache For This Useful Post:
Old 08-12-2020, 12:18 PM   #55
RyZ
First Line Centre
 
RyZ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache View Post
Are you saying that the parents who are sending their kids to day homes now are planning on sending their kids to school?

I would caution on extrapolating a sample size where everyone has something similar and almost predictive in common
The bolded sounds an awful lot like the COVID board right here on CP, but I digress.


No. We dont have any kids coming over right now at all. Havent had any since schools shut down in March.

Im just saying that through a large network of friends and contacts in the local childcare industry and through school, sports, weekend classes, etc and the many people she has talked to with school aged kids themselves through the local groups she is involved with she is getting the impression that the overwhelming majority of kids will be going back to school full time with very few kids staying home online.

Your own large network of local parents may have different views and results, but I caution you against thinking the opinions of your bubble are mainstream.
RyZ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-2020, 02:01 PM   #56
bossy22
Powerplay Quarterback
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by WinnipegFan View Post

Oh and it is my career that would hit the brakes for my kids health not wifeís so I guess I am the 1/10. I think that was a pretty ignorant comment.

Out of my friends that are keeping the kids home, which is two families so far, it's the men staying home. If my son wasn't in a private school, we would be doing home schooling and I would be the one staying home as well. We would also be moving to BC, but because my son is thriving at his school, we are staying put for now.


There is a lady on our community facebook page who is asking if there are any retired teachers that can help her. She's keeping all three of her kids home.
bossy22 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-2020, 03:50 PM   #57
GGG
Franchise Player
 
GGG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by WinnipegFan View Post
https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/corona...says-1.5048666

260 Kids infected at a sleep over camp.

Our own Catholic system with social distancing, masks, and all the precautions had one 3 kids of 15 infected that small sample size is 20% transmission.

Australia has dozens of schools shut down due to outbreaks:
https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/202.../vsch-j27.html

I think what you are misinterpreting is that I am against sending kids back. I am not. I am against sending kids back with a lack of a plan. We don't have one. How is not more logical to start at Stage 2 and see if it works and progress to Stage 1? Look at Ontario they are spending millions and millions to make their schools safe. B.C. is delaying opening due to the growing evidence and need to adjust the plan. Not here, we weren't going to even have masks until the public rampage. Hinshaw as much said she was being ignored when asked about schools before masking was made mandatory and all she could say is she continued to recommend masks in public places where distancing wasn't available.
BC is not delaying opening due to growing evidence.

They have delayed opening 2 days in order to have Teachers and other staff have orientation sessions to prepare them for the requirements of their Covid plans. Each school district is required to submit their plans to the province by Aug 21st.

There cohort sizes are 120 for high schools and 60 for elementary.

Their plan appears very similar to Alberta's at the provincial level. We will see if at the board level it is different.

Source is the press conference today with the BC education minister.

Last edited by GGG; 08-12-2020 at 03:53 PM.
GGG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-2020, 04:29 PM   #58
tvp2003
Franchise Player
 
tvp2003's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by WinnipegFan View Post
https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/corona...says-1.5048666

260 Kids infected at a sleep over camp.
From the article:

Quote:
According to the study, published Friday in the CDC's Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report, the camp adopted most of the components outlined in the CDC document "Suggestions for Youth and Summer Camps," but it did not make campers wear cloth face masks -- only the staff.

Nor did the camp open windows and doors for increased ventilation In buildings.

Additionally, camp attendees engaged in "daily vigorous singing and cheering," which might have contributed to transmission.
Regardless of how many people are in a classroom, daycare, or cohort, I really hope people have figured out that singing and the like, especially indoors, is a bad idea.
tvp2003 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-2020, 04:36 PM   #59
DeluxeMoustache
 
DeluxeMoustache's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tvp2003 View Post
From the article:



Regardless of how many people are in a classroom, daycare, or cohort, I really hope people have figured out that singing and the like, especially indoors, is a bad idea.

Breathing, too, perhaps. Scientists have confirmed the virus can be aerosolized
DeluxeMoustache is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-2020, 05:33 PM   #60
Mccree
#1 Goaltender
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Calgary
Exp:
Default

My kids 13 and 15 will be going back to school. My daughter (15) will be starting grade 10 and has a compromised immune system. Speaking only for my kids, these past 4 months have been mentally tough on them and we have noticed very drastic changes in them in not a good way. Recently, they have started sports again and it has helped their mental state. Going back to school, is one more step to them healing mentally. To our family the risk of COVID does not outweigh their mental health.
__________________

Mccree is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Mccree For This Useful Post:
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:59 PM.

Calgary Flames
2019-20




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright Calgarypuck 2016