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Old 10-27-2020, 10:24 AM   #2981
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Originally Posted by Sliver View Post
I'm fuming at the religious services exemption. Like, it's ridiculous enough people go to voluntarily indoctrinate themselves with obvious bologna at the best of times, but to do so during a pandemic is egregious. It's the most unnecessary thing somebody could possibly do. Literally a meaningless thing that matters exactly 0 if you just don't go. It's the lowest of the low hanging fruit for obvious closure until we're through the pandemic.
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Old 10-27-2020, 10:37 AM   #2982
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I noticed that "Vitamin D" was trending on twitter in Canada.

A few clicks later and I'm guessing it has to do with this study:

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More than 80 per cent of COVID-19 patients at a hospital in Spain had a vitamin D deficiency, according to a new study.

Researchers at the University Hospital Marques de Valdecilla in Santander, Spain looked at the vitamin D levels of 216 patients admitted to hospital for coronavirus treatment between March 10 and March 31.
https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/more-t...tudy-1.5162396

Not here to put out any crazy theories but the days are only getting shorter from now until the winter so prepare accordingly!
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Old 10-27-2020, 10:40 AM   #2983
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It is absolutely insane that Vitamin D isn't being pushed as a treatment option, and as a preventative measure.

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There is no specific and effective medication for coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19), and avaccine is not available in recent months. Here, we hypothesize that a single large dose of vitamin D (Vit D) could be an option for trial in COVID-19. Vit D deficiency or insufficiency is very common in the general population as well as in patients with COVID-19. It has been shown that low Vit D level is associated with viral infection, and Vit D supplementation is beneficial for people infected with viruses, such as HIV and hepatitis C virus. Although COVID-19 is a respiratory disease, the morbidity and mortality of this disease are driven by coagulopathy. Clinical studies have shown that Vit D can exert anticoagulant effects. Vit D, a lipid-soluble vitamin, can be administered as a draught. Vit D supplementation is safe and has rare toxic events. In addition, the cost of Vit D is fairly low. Based on these observations, we speculate that a single dose of 300,000 IU Vit D may have a role in the prevention and treatment of COVID-19.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7457388/
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Old 10-27-2020, 10:47 AM   #2984
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So, not ignoring the science means we put aside the herd immunity idea, right ?

Reuters UK
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Antibodies against the novel coronavirus declined rapidly in the British population during the summer, a study found, suggesting protection after infection may not be long lasting and raising the prospect of waning immunity in the community

The study backs up findings from similar surveys in Germany which found the vast majority of people didn’t have COVID-19 antibodies, even in hotspots for the disease, and that antibodies might fade in those who do.

The rapid waning of antibodies did not necessarily have implications for the efficacy of vaccine candidates currently in clinical trials, Imperial’s Barclay said.

“A good vaccine may well be better than natural immunity,” she said.


https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-he...source=twitter
I read the article hoping there'd be more info on this last part but they sadly left it at that. I'd be interested to hear how this works, what mechanism of a vaccine boosts immunity for longer than an actual infection? Will people need to be inoculated against this annually for a booster like with the flu? I feel like all I've read throughout this is if re-infection is possible then kiss the chance of an effective permanent vaccine goodbye as well. For such an important conclusion it'd be nice to have an expansion on that statement.
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Old 10-27-2020, 10:53 AM   #2985
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https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/covid...ning-1.5778282

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Originally Posted by Sidney Crosby's Hat View Post
That doesn't really take into account T-Cells, though.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/release...1026114218.htm

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Although immunity to the novel coronavirus is a complex and murky area, and may be assisted by T cells as well as B cells, which can stimulate the quick production of antibodies following re-exposure to the virus, the researchers said the experience of other coronaviruses suggested immunity might not be enduring.

"We can see the antibodies and we can see them declining and we know that antibodies on their own are quite protective," Wendy Barclay, head of the Department of Infectious Disease at Imperial College London, told reporters.

"On the balance of evidence I would say, with what we know for other coronaviruses, it would look as if immunity declines away at the same rate as antibodies decline away, and that this is an indication of waning immunity at the population level."
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Old 10-27-2020, 10:56 AM   #2986
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In a retrospective study of patients tested for COVID-19, researchers at the University of Chicago Medicine found an association between vitamin D deficiency and the likelihood of becoming infected with the coronavirus.

"Vitamin D is important to the function of the immune system and vitamin D supplements have previously been shown to lower the risk of viral respiratory tract infections," said David Meltzer, MD, PhD, Chief of Hospital Medicine at UChicago Medicine and lead author of the study. "Our statistical analysis suggests this may be true for the COVID-19 infection."

The research team looked at 489 UChicago Medicine patients whose vitamin D level was measured within a year before being tested for COVID-19. Patients who had vitamin D deficiency (< 20ng/ml) that was not treated were almost twice as likely to test positive for the COVID-19 coronavirus compared to patients who had sufficient levels of the vitamin.
https://www.sciencedaily.com/release...0903133007.htm

The study that TVP2003 posted was released in the news today. The one I posted is from 2 months ago.
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Old 10-27-2020, 10:58 AM   #2987
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It is absolutely insane that Vitamin D isn't being pushed as a treatment option, and as a preventative measure.



https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7457388/
To be fair, for as long as I've lived in Canada I have always had doctors insist on taking vitamin D.

Regardless of this pandemic, everyone should take 1000IU of D3 every day.
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Old 10-27-2020, 10:59 AM   #2988
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We have also known for years that Vitamin D deficiency is a major issue in many countries. From 2014.

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Vitamin D deficiency is a major public health problem worldwide in all age groups, even in those residing in countries with low latitude, where it was generally assumed that UV radiation was adequate enough to prevent this deficiency, and in industrialized countries, where vitamin D fortification has been implemented now for years.

....

In areas with available data, the prevalence of low vitamin D status is a global problem in all age groups, in particular in girls and women from the Middle East. These maps also evidenced the regions with missing data for each specific population groups. There is striking lack of data in infants, children and adolescents worldwide, and in most countries of South America and Africa. In conclusion, vitamin D deficiency is a global public health problem in all age groups, particularly in those from the Middle East.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4018438/

I'm not a research scientist, but I simply do not understand why this isn't getting more traction immediately. It is also extremely safe to supplement with vitamin D, with the riskier intake levels being pretty high. I.E. most people are not going to pop 20-30 pills per day, and one Vitamin pill is 1000IU.
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Old 10-27-2020, 11:01 AM   #2989
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I'm an atheist, but I don't share your contempt for religion and the religious. You wouldn't know it from places like CP (or other online forums used mainly by young, white, educated, males), but more than two-thirds of Albertans identify themselves as having a religious affiliation, and a third say religion is very important to their lives. For many Albertans, church/temple/mosque attendance is crucial to their sense of wellbeing, and their primary connection to the community. This is backed with data showing religious people tend to be happier than the non-religious (https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tan...this-question/).

There's also a racial/multicultural angle to the issue, as people born outside Canada are considerably more likely to regularly attend religious services than people born in Canada (35% versus 21%). Closing churches and mosques would disproportionally impact people of colour.

The pandemic directives from the government are trying to balance various public goods. Gyms are kept open because physical fitness is important. Schools are kept open because education and peer socialization are important. Churches and mosques are kept open because they give many people a sense of meaning and community, and stave off social isolation. You don't have to be religious yourself to recognize that.
I agree with you on why gyms and schools are kept open.

I disagree with you on why churches and mosques are kept open. It would be politically damaging to alienate religion-affiliated voters, which is the reason they aren't closed. My position isn't based on some misunderstanding of the amount of religious people and the meaning religion holds for them; it's based on the fact that we're in a pandemic and people congregating (singing, sharing bathroom facilities, visiting, etc.) unnecessarily runs completely counter to our collective efforts to limit the spread.

I can't be the only one limiting my interactions at the expense of my sense of meaning, community and needs to stave off isolation. These are the exact sacrifices we need to be making to limit the impact of the pandemic. Just Google "church spread of Covid" or something similar and you'll see how congregating to sing and be with groups of people from different cohorts spreads the disease.

We all have to take some risks to keep the world turning; however, it's the unnecessary risks that are frustrating to see continue to take place. If a religious person's sense of wellbeing comes from the spiritual component of going to church, then surely that can be satiated to some extent with a zoom service.

It's very selfish to risk spreading the disease so you can pump up your "sense of wellbeing." I don't give a fata about your sense of wellbeing if it's derived from literally worshipping a hilariously fake god while singing bad songs with a bunch of other people that share your delusions.

Aside from their charitable components - something not unique to churches - they offer very little to the community at large. In fact, by virtue of their tax-exempt status, they're a net negative on the community in many respects.

As for bars - yeah, there is a very reasonable argument to be made to close them down. The only problem I see there is the economic impact on the employees, supply chains, landlords, tax pool, etc. That's tangible and significant and I'm hesitant to want to take that way. I don't care so much about the patrons who need to buy a beer and some wings - I care about the people reliant on an operating business for their livelihood.
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Old 10-27-2020, 11:13 AM   #2990
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Originally Posted by Ryan Coke View Post
The narrative in here was interesting to read after happening to listen to Dr Hinshaw press conference live on my way home from work.

She talked about targeting specific areas due to the data of situations with high numbers of infections, while keeping restrictions open where the data doesnít indicate high risk. That is why wedding receptions are limited, but not organized events like the ceremony itself. She also talked about places of work, and how people need to be vigilant with co-workers and that they are not part of a persons cohort, and that there is significant spread in those situations. But obviously it is difficult to shutdown all places of work where people interact.

And yet the perception of some posters in here to make severe criticisms without even the effort to try to understand why is.....not really surprising, but certainly illuminating. Itís almost like experts in the field have more knowledge and understanding than your average internet epidemiologist. And to understand all you might need to do is listen.
Not sure if you've ever worked in public relations, but you have to know that Henshaw must temper what she's saying to balance in economic, educational and other political factors. She isn't giving you the best medical advice for how to avoid spreading the disease; she's communicating a pre-agreed upon message that incorporates many competing philosophies on how best to carry on.

I think she's trustworthy and appreciate her updates, but I do know they aren't the best of the best medical advice because that's not something somebody in her position can or should do. She has to take into account political and economic factors as well. The advice she's giving to the province as a whole would be different from the advice she'd give to an individual, I'm sure.

If you want to take her at face value then go for it. I for one would not go to a wedding ceremony right now, though, because despite what Henshaw says, I know if dumb dumb behind me sneezes with their mask sitting below their nose they could spread Covid while I'm watching the bride on "her day".
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Old 10-27-2020, 11:25 AM   #2991
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We have also known for years that Vitamin D deficiency is a major issue in many countries. From 2014.



https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4018438/

I'm not a research scientist, but I simply do not understand why this isn't getting more traction immediately. It is also extremely safe to supplement with vitamin D, with the riskier intake levels being pretty high. I.E. most people are not going to pop 20-30 pills per day, and one Vitamin pill is 1000IU.
Also most Canadians are Vitamin D deficient, especially this time of year.
I know I'm popping my daily Vitamin D pill religiously now and I'm surprised there's no message about doing so coming from our Government officials.

It's a lot simpler message than trying to define how you can have 3/4 cohorts of x people

Last edited by Torture; 10-27-2020 at 11:27 AM.
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Old 10-27-2020, 11:28 AM   #2992
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Also most Canadians are Vitamin D deficient, especially this time of year.
I know I'm popping my daily Vitamin D pill religiously now and I'm surprised there's no message about doing so coming from our Government officials.
We need to make sure we have enough vitamin d supplements on the shelves for first responders though...

Yeah I’ve been taking 1000 IU of Vitamin D daily since at least April... since that British health fellow discussed it in one of his videos.
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Old 10-27-2020, 11:29 AM   #2993
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Iím getting really tired of people on Facebook and in person saying that masks donít work because places like Edmonton, Calgary, and St. Albert have strict mask requirements and their numbers are rising.

No, idiots, itís because people have gotten lazy with house parties, Thanksgiving, return to school, air travel resuming and many acting as if the virus has gone away.

My city this week implemented a full mask requirement in indoor spaces and the whiners and deniers are so annoying.
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Old 10-27-2020, 11:30 AM   #2994
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Originally Posted by Sliver View Post
Not sure if you've ever worked in public relations, but you have to know that Henshaw must temper what she's saying to balance in economic, educational and other political factors. She isn't giving you the best medical advice for how to avoid spreading the disease; she's communicating a pre-agreed upon message that incorporates many competing philosophies on how best to carry on.

I think she's trustworthy and appreciate her updates, but I do know they aren't the best of the best medical advice because that's not something somebody in her position can or should do. She has to take into account political and economic factors as well. The advice she's giving to the province as a whole would be different from the advice she'd give to an individual, I'm sure.

If you want to take her at face value then go for it. I for one would not go to a wedding ceremony right now, though, because despite what Henshaw says, I know if dumb dumb behind me sneezes with their mask sitting below their nose they could spread Covid while I'm watching the bride on "her day".
This is well said, Sliver.

She is not an independent officer of the Legislature - i.e. she doesn't get to make the rules, tell what the main message is, etc.

Does she have input? Sure, she offers her advice. But its not, ultimately, her decision.
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Old 10-27-2020, 11:31 AM   #2995
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Vitamin D is not well enough studied to make conclusions about it.
https://www.cebm.net/covid-19/vitami...n-in-covid-19/

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Some have speculated that people with low serum vitamin D might be at higher risk of infection with COVID-19, or do worse if infected.[9] There is an overlap between groups at high risk of vitamin D deficiency and groups at high risk of severe COVID-19. Examples include people with chronic disease, older age, and people of black and minority ethnic (BAME) heritage. However, infants and children are at risk of vitamin D deficiency, but are not considered high-risk for severe COVID-19.[10]
https://www.mayoclinic.org/drugs-sup...d/art-20363792

Also, high Dosages of Vitamin D can be dangerous and can have interactions with other medications (like Statins for Cholesterol).

I would pump the brakes on High Dose Vitamin D. Daily 1000IU sure, probably a good idea.
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Old 10-27-2020, 11:35 AM   #2996
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I agree with you on why gyms and schools are kept open.

I disagree with you on why churches and mosques are kept open. It would be politically damaging to alienate religion-affiliated voters, which is the reason they aren't closed. My position isn't based on some misunderstanding of the amount of religious people and the meaning religion holds for them; it's based on the fact that we're in a pandemic and people congregating (singing, sharing bathroom facilities, visiting, etc.) unnecessarily runs completely counter to our collective efforts to limit the spread.

I can't be the only one limiting my interactions at the expense of my sense of meaning, community and needs to stave off isolation. These are the exact sacrifices we need to be making to limit the impact of the pandemic. Just Google "church spread of Covid" or something similar and you'll see how congregating to sing and be with groups of people from different cohorts spreads the disease.

We all have to take some risks to keep the world turning; however, it's the unnecessary risks that are frustrating to see continue to take place. If a religious person's sense of wellbeing comes from the spiritual component of going to church, then surely that can be satiated to some extent with a zoom service.

It's very selfish to risk spreading the disease so you can pump up your "sense of wellbeing." I don't give a fata about your sense of wellbeing if it's derived from literally worshipping a hilariously fake god while singing bad songs with a bunch of other people that share your delusions.

Aside from their charitable components - something not unique to churches - they offer very little to the community at large. In fact, by virtue of their tax-exempt status, they're a net negative on the community in many respects.

As for bars - yeah, there is a very reasonable argument to be made to close them down. The only problem I see there is the economic impact on the employees, supply chains, landlords, tax pool, etc. That's tangible and significant and I'm hesitant to want to take that way. I don't care so much about the patrons who need to buy a beer and some wings - I care about the people reliant on an operating business for their livelihood.
When you say things like this, whatever else you say loses credibility.

Have you been to a church in Alberta? I have been to several. They are the safest public places I have been. There is no singing by the congregation. More recently, they have had one cantor sing for everyone at some liturgies. Churches are huge buildings with high ceilings and often have capacities well over 1000. Right now, they have numbers in them ranging from 25 - 100. Everyone is spread out so each family group is 2 meters from the next. Everyone wears masks throughout their time. There is no talking and visiting. People come in, are ushered to their seats and then ushered out at the end. Once people have left, all the pews are wiped down twice. The first to remove any soiling and the second to sanitize against the vaccine.

There is absolutely no comparison to the safety of schools to churches or to restaurants.

Your opposition is more to do with your prejudice against people who have a different belief system than you than it has to do with the lack of safety in churches.
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Old 10-27-2020, 11:47 AM   #2997
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Except for The Advance Church that rents out a room at Cardel Place South. They had a full band with singers and people without masks on milling about in there.
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Old 10-27-2020, 11:56 AM   #2998
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Needs some more peer review and perhaps repeat testing, but interesting results.

COVID's cognitive costs? Some patients' brains may age 10 years

LONDON (Reuters) - People recovering from COVID-19 may suffer significant brain function impacts, with the worst cases of the infection linked to mental decline equivalent to the brain ageing by 10 years, researchers warned on Tuesday.

A non-peer-reviewed study of more than 84,000 people, led by Adam Hampshire, a doctor at Imperial College London, found that in some severe cases, coronavirus infection is linked to substantial cognitive deficits for months.

“Our analyses ... align with the view that there are chronic cognitive consequences of having COVID-19,” the researchers wrote in a report of their findings. “People who had recovered, including those no longer reporting symptoms, exhibited significant cognitive deficits.”

Cognitive tests measure how well the brain performs tasks –- such as remembering words or joining dots on a puzzle. Such tests are widely used to assess brain performance in diseases like Alzheimer’s, and can also help doctors assess temporary brain impairments.
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Old 10-27-2020, 12:00 PM   #2999
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.....you have to know that Henshaw must temper what she's saying to balance in economic, educational and other political factors. She isn't giving you the best medical advice for how to avoid spreading the disease; she's communicating a pre-agreed upon message that incorporates many competing philosophies on how best to carry on.
Yes, 100%.

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I think she's trustworthy and appreciate her updates, but I do know they aren't the best of the best medical advice because that's not something somebody in her position can or should do. She has to take into account political and economic factors as well.
I believe that she has sincerely and honestly tried to balance those competing interests to arrive at the most beneficial overall public health policies. It is the thing I most admire about her, is that she really appreciates the downsides of every one of the restrictions she puts in place, and she doesn’t view preventing COVID cases as her singular goal like some other jurisdictions (the East Coast). Philosophically I’m sure we would all do certain things slightly differently, but that’s different than saying these policies are moronic because I would do something somewhat differently.

And there is a huge gulf between, as you say, trying to balance economic, educational, and other factors, and saying that she is being forced by Kenney to do things she disagrees with (not you specifically). Although I am sure there are spirited discussions around major public policy decisions, and I would expect nothing less.

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If you want to take her at face value then go for it. I for one would not go to a wedding ceremony right now, though, because despite what Henshaw says, I know if dumb dumb behind me sneezes with their mask sitting below their nose they could spread Covid while I'm watching the bride on "her day".
I don’t take anything at face value. Trust me.

But I do believe that when she says situation A has evidence for high rate of spread and situation B doesn’t, she is being truthful.

And seeing as how nobody I know is getting married, I can easily agree that I have no interest in going to a wedding. But I can get sneezed on anywhere, at work, at a restaurant, outside going for a walk. My risk tolerance is balanced by what is important to me, I’m sure you do the same.

Last edited by Ryan Coke; 10-27-2020 at 12:08 PM.
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Old 10-27-2020, 12:01 PM   #3000
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Except for The Advance Church that rents out a room at Cardel Place South. They had a full band with singers and people without masks on milling about in there.

Yeah. There are a lot of those small evangelical churches that pop up around in the industrial areas.
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