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Old 04-11-2020, 07:54 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by GordonBlue View Post
Usually when something such as this is posted, it's because the person posting believes it.
Not really
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Old 04-11-2020, 08:13 PM   #22
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Does it make a difference if this was an unknown accidental release or the cause of wet markets?
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Old 04-11-2020, 08:22 PM   #23
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This thread is classic. Exemplifies what happens so often on CP.

In the face of one of the biggest stories of our generation the OP decides to start a new thread on the origins of Covid-19, of the view, quite fairly, that perhaps there should be a separate discussion as to the origins of the virus, particularly in light of the repeated denials, cover-ups and misinformation on the part of the Chinese government that in no small part resulted in tens of thousands of deaths that likely could have been avoided.

The OP posts an interesting story, provides the source, and suggests that the journalist presents a convincing argument. Nothing more. He doesn't quote it for the truth. He leaves it up to us to form of our own opinions. He concludes by noting, which is well accepted, that regardless of the the origin of the virus the Chinese government knew full well what was happening, did not act nearly quickly enough and failed miserably in their efforts to keep the virus contained.

What happened next was entirely predictable. Serial posters like AFC, who, as noted, rarely misses an opportunity to present himself as the resident CP expert on everything, immediately jumps on the case and rescues us all from any possible misconception that there might be something to the story, and concludes that based on the statements of "every credible scientist he has heard" that the story is absolute garbage. Of course we are required to rely on AFC's opinion as to what constitutes credible science.

Others quickly jump on the bandwagon. The OP should be "embarrassed" for posting the story and is forced to admit that he doesn't necessarily believe the journalist. He never said he did in the first place. Another scolds him for bad form in not qualifying his post with the usual "interesting if true" lest we draw the wrong conclusion that he must believe the story to be true.

And of course, out of remorse for starting the discussion, he is forced to walk things back (he should not have been required to post any follow-up in the first place), having been shamed to confess that he really doesn't know what to believe.

Never change CP.

Last edited by Manhattanboy; 04-11-2020 at 08:29 PM.
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Old 04-11-2020, 08:34 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manhattanboy View Post
This thread is classic. Exemplifies what happens so often on CP.

In the face of one of the biggest stories of our generation the OP decides to start a new thread on the origins of Covid-19, of the view, quite fairly, that perhaps there should be a separate discussion as to the origins of the virus, particularly in light of the repeated denials, cover-ups and misinformation on the part of the Chinese government that in no small part resulted in tens of thousands of deaths that likely could have been avoided.

The OP posts an interesting story, provides the source, and suggests that the journalist presents a convincing argument. Nothing more. He doesn't quote it for the truth. He leaves it up to us to form of our own opinions. He concludes by noting, which is well accepted, that regardless of the the origin of the virus the Chinese government knew full well what was happening, did not act nearly quickly enough and failed miserably in their efforts to keep the virus contained.

What happened next was entirely predictable. Serial posters like AFC, who, as noted, rarely misses an opportunity to present himself as the resident CP expert on everything, immediately jumps on the case and rescues us all from any possible misconception that there might be something to the story, and concludes that based on the statements of "every credible scientist he has heard" that the story is absolute garbage. Of course we are required to rely on AFC's opinion as to what constitutes credible science.

Others quickly jump on the bandwagon. The OP should be "embarrassed" for posting the story and is forced to admit that he doesn't necessarily believe the journalist. He never said he did in the first place. Another scolds him for bad form in not qualifying his post with the usual "interesting if true" lest we draw the wrong conclusion that he must believe the story to be true.

And of course, out of remorse for starting the discussion, he is forced to walk things back (he should not have in the first place), having been shamed to admit that he really doesn't know what to believe.

Never change CP.
It's the dangerous part of the internet.

No matter how absurd your opinion (current thread notwithstanding) you will find a group of people that support it. It's how the anti-vax movement began and proliferated.

The general Covid thread has been a great example of it, with the mob supporting posts about panic, how bad the disease is, and shutting down any poster who tried to be rational or discuss the merits of various Covid policy. Gradually the reasonable posters left and it became an echo chamber. At least now it seems to have returned to some semblance of reasonable discussion.

It's a big problem with having 'thanks' or upvotes (like reddit); some posters with a great message and discussion are shut out because there are 2 drive bys and 3 straw man arguments that follow.
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Last edited by TheSutterDynasty; 04-11-2020 at 08:41 PM.
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Old 04-11-2020, 08:37 PM   #25
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High level discussion of the virology of Covid-19. Even with a science background, I only understand half of the words in this video. Honestly, the Chinese could have had a easier time designing 5G towers to make us all go nuts over 5G towers...

If it was engineered i'm sure these western scientists would find out soon enough.
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Old 04-11-2020, 08:41 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manhattanboy View Post
This thread is classic. Exemplifies what happens so often on CP.

In the face of one of the biggest stories of our generation the OP decides to start a new thread on the origins of Covid-19, of the view, quite fairly, that perhaps there should be a separate discussion as to the origins of the virus, particularly in light of the repeated denials, cover-ups and misinformation on the part of the Chinese government that in no small part resulted in tens of thousands of deaths that likely could have been avoided.

The OP posts an interesting story, provides the source, and suggests that the journalist presents a convincing argument. Nothing more. He doesn't quote it for the truth. He leaves it up to us to form of our own opinions. He concludes by noting, which is well accepted, that regardless of the the origin of the virus the Chinese government knew full well what was happening, did not act nearly quickly enough and failed miserably in their efforts to keep the virus contained.

What happened next was entirely predictable. Serial posters like AFC, who, as noted, rarely misses an opportunity to present himself as the resident CP expert on everything, immediately jumps on the case and rescues us all from any possible misconception that there might be something to the story, and concludes that based on the statements of "every credible scientist he has heard" that the story is absolute garbage. Of course we are required to rely on AFC's opinion as to what constitutes credible science.

Others quickly jump on the bandwagon. The OP should be "embarrassed" for posting the story and is forced to admit that he doesn't necessarily believe the journalist. He never said he did in the first place. Another scolds him for bad form in not qualifying his post with the usual "interesting if true" lest we draw the wrong conclusion that he must believe the story to be true.

And of course, out of remorse for starting the discussion, he is forced to walk things back (he should not have been required to post any follow-up in the first place), having been shamed to confess that he really doesn't know what to believe.

Never change CP.
You know I looked through all of my posts on the B Johnson thread and at no point did I say I knew what was happening, I was clear to post that what I was posting was what the Guardian and LBC were reporting as rumours, we all post and reply to posts, by definition none of us are posting anything we don't think is possibly true and presumably interesting but the whole point of this forum is for us to disagree and debate, not one thing that anyone posts here outside the more technical threads like how to repair a PC or the like is anything more than fodder for debate, it's not like any of us have any expertise on most anything we are commenting on.

The original poster put up his post, I gave him my opinion of his post, that's the whole point of a talkboard no?
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Old 04-11-2020, 08:43 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GGG View Post
Does it make a difference if this was an unknown accidental release or the cause of wet markets?
This is a good question but I think it does in terms of preventative maintenance going forward I guess. Also, possibly in terms of the Chinese government’s credibility.
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Old 04-11-2020, 08:45 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manhattanboy View Post
This thread is classic. Exemplifies what happens so often on CP.

In the face of one of the biggest stories of our generation the OP decides to start a new thread on the origins of Covid-19, of the view, quite fairly, that perhaps there should be a separate discussion as to the origins of the virus, particularly in light of the repeated denials, cover-ups and misinformation on the part of the Chinese government that in no small part resulted in tens of thousands of deaths that likely could have been avoided.

The OP posts an interesting story, provides the source, and suggests that the journalist presents a convincing argument. Nothing more. He doesn't quote it for the truth. He leaves it up to us to form of our own opinions. He concludes by noting, which is well accepted, that regardless of the the origin of the virus the Chinese government knew full well what was happening, did not act nearly quickly enough and failed miserably in their efforts to keep the virus contained.

What happened next was entirely predictable. Serial posters like AFC, who, as noted, rarely misses an opportunity to present himself as the resident CP expert on everything, immediately jumps on the case and rescues us all from any possible misconception that there might be something to the story, and concludes that based on the statements of "every credible scientist he has heard" that the story is absolute garbage. Of course we are required to rely on AFC's opinion as to what constitutes credible science.

Others quickly jump on the bandwagon. The OP should be "embarrassed" for posting the story and is forced to admit that he doesn't necessarily believe the journalist. He never said he did in the first place. Another scolds him for bad form in not qualifying his post with the usual "interesting if true" lest we draw the wrong conclusion that he must believe the story to be true.

And of course, out of remorse for starting the discussion, he is forced to walk things back (he should not have been required to post any follow-up in the first place), having been shamed to confess that he really doesn't know what to believe.

Never change CP.
This website and its posters do seem extremely aggressive lately. Zero tolerance for difference of opinion. Quite disappointing.
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Old 04-11-2020, 08:47 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GGG View Post
Does it make a difference if this was an unknown accidental release or the cause of wet markets?
It's not like Homer leaving the nuclear plant with a test tube in his back pocket.
There are no accidental releases
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Old 04-11-2020, 08:48 PM   #30
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I thought it was some guy shoveling bat guano onto his field, then heading to the market for a slop bucket of meat for dinner. Whether it started in the market or not, it definitely seems to have taken off there.
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Old 04-11-2020, 08:54 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EldrickOnIce View Post
It's not like Homer leaving the nuclear plant with a test tube in his back pocket.
There are no accidental releases
It's a theory that relies on the under lying assumption that the Chinese are either evil or incompetent, either way it puts down the Chinese.
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Old 04-11-2020, 08:57 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by afc wimbledon View Post
You know I looked through all of my posts on the B Johnson thread and at no point did I say I knew what was happening, I was clear to post that what I was posting was what the Guardian and LBC were reporting as rumours, we all post and reply to posts, by definition none of us are posting anything we don't think is possibly true and presumably interesting but the whole point of this forum is for us to disagree and debate, not one thing that anyone posts here outside the more technical threads like how to repair a PC or the like is anything more than fodder for debate, it's not like any of us have any expertise on most anything we are commenting on.

The original poster put up his post, I gave him my opinion of his post, that's the whole point of a talkboard no?
Here is one of your posts, speaking as though you completed your residency in infectious disease at Johns Hopkins. I found it amusing that at the very same time as I was reading it, Dr. Isaac Bogoch (who is a specialist in infectious disease) was on CTV suggesting that Boris Johnson was admitted to the ICU as a precautionary measure, exactly the opposite of your opinion. One of many posts of yours where you speak in absolutes.

"No one gets taken to ICU as a 'protective measure' I mean what is it supposed to protect him from, the 40 second journey from the regular bed to the one in ICU? if he, or anyone else is in an ICU due to covid its because they are very, very sick which is what the rumour has been for several days now, and frankly if he wasn't we would have had him releasing a cheerful but calming message.

Johnson is apparently on a respirator despite the official line, my only question really is whether he is already in a coma."
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Old 04-11-2020, 09:01 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EldrickOnIce View Post
It's not like Homer leaving the nuclear plant with a test tube in his back pocket.
There are no accidental releases
Unless a researcher accidentally gets infected without realizing it and then releases the virus to the public? In my field there is the story of a chemist who accidentally exposed herself to organic mercury eventually dying. These accidental exposures do happen and will continue to happen despite how smart we think we are.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karen_Wetterhahn
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Old 04-11-2020, 09:14 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee View Post
This website and its posters do seem extremely aggressive lately. Zero tolerance for difference of opinion. Quite disappointing.
Zero tolerance for agenda-driven conspiracy theories. We might as well talk about how 5G towers are causing Covid next.

Some opinions simply are not worthy of respect. And that includes this one, even with full knowledge that it is a virtual certainty that the CCP is lying about many aspects of the disease within their borders.
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Old 04-11-2020, 09:21 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by Manhattanboy View Post
This thread is classic. Exemplifies what happens so often on CP.
...
Never change CP.
It's not as dramatic as you're making it to be.
The OP posted a story thats counter to all science and expert opinions. No one stopped them, threw them in prison or banned them from CP.

Someone correctly told them the story contrasts all known expert opinions; a simple truth.

You're allowed to post what you want (within forum rules) but people are allowed to challenge it too. You need to understand that's how discussions work and people may disagree with you in large numbers when you're going far fringe and "the experts are all wrong" on any topic.

You're getting mad that the majority of CP is deferring to the experts in field on this issue, you need to understand that's going to happen.
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Old 04-11-2020, 09:40 PM   #36
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Does it make a difference if this was an unknown accidental release or the cause of wet markets?

At this point no, probably not.

What matters I suppose is the blame game. Society always feels a need to point blame. It's obvious blame is being directed at the Chinese, but the pitchfork brandishers need to know to what extent the punishment shall be. Are they being punished for messing around with microscopic bugs while developing an ultra bio-weapon, or shall they be flogged for eating dirty bat soup?
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Old 04-11-2020, 09:43 PM   #37
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For arguments sake, what justification have the experts used to state with confidence that it was transmitted from animal to human?

It is likely and plausible of course

And also it is known that
- research is being done on similar viruses, and they are being manufactured for that testing
- industrial accidents happen

If there was an accident where this highly contagious virus got out of a lab, can we be confident that the Chinese government would disclose this?

I didn’t yet watch the video, but does it not have to be plausible that the virus could have escaped the lab environment with nobody fessing up ?
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Old 04-11-2020, 11:27 PM   #38
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Well hereís an article from the Washington post saying that itís possible this could have been an accidental release from the bio lab.

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.wash...outputType=amp
That's not an article, that is an opinion piece. Clearly identified as an opinion as it is run in the Opinions section.

Quote:
Highlights include:
No evidence of bats being sold at this seafood market
The bats that carry these viruses live in southern China, 1000s of Kmís from Wuhan
Bat coronaviruses were being studied at the virology institute
Institute is 300 yards from seafood market
First case had no known link to seafood market
Articles postulating this could have been an accidental release scrubbed from Chinese internet.
What a strange interpretation of this piece. How did you miss this statement, that was made TWICE in the column.

"U.S. intelligence officials think thereís no evidence whatsoever that the coronavirus was created in a laboratory as a potential bioweapon. Solid scientific research demonstrates that the virus wasnít engineered by humans and that it originated in bats."

The primary source for the claim that the cover story may be bogus? IFLS.com. That's "I ####ing Love Science" a web site that looks at the funny side of science.

The column also makes many errors. Starting with this beauty which seems to be the basis for this post.

"The Lancet noted in a January study that the first covid-19 case in Wuhan had no connection to the seafood market."

This patently false. The original Lancet study can be found here. In that study it clearly states,"7 (66%) patients had direct exposure to Huanan seafood market (figure 1B). Market exposure was similar between the patients with ICU care (nine [69%]) and those with non-ICU care (18 [64%]). The symptom onset date of the first patient identified was Dec 1, 2019. None of his family members developed fever or any respiratory symptoms. No epidemiological link was found between the first patient and later cases. The first fatal case, who had continuous exposure to the market, was admitted to hospital because of a 7-day history of fever, cough, and dyspnoea."

Quote:
Thereís a microbiologist from Rutgers quoted in the story, hopefully heís credible enough for the people on this board. Itís at least a possibility, nothing more nothing less. In any case, postulating that scientists know 100% that this originated from an animal market is just dumb. Itís weird to see this pandemic play out and people refuse to allow possibilities for variance in things we most assuredly donít know, like transmissibility fatality rates and origin. No one has a scientific background I guess.
Here's what the scientist said. "Richard Ebright, a Rutgers microbiologist and biosafety expert, told me in an email that ďthe first human infection could have occurred as a natural accident,Ē with the virus passing from bat to human, possibly through another animal. But Ebright cautioned that it ďalso could have occurred as a laboratory accident, with, for example, an accidental infection of a laboratory worker.Ē

He postulates two things, without having proof or data to support either statement. Considering the data available in the Lancet article - a real scientific journal article - it kind of takes apart Ebright's thesis. I suspect that Ignatius reached out to him with a question framed to get a specific response and the good doctor followed through with an academic's pat answer of "could be this, or it could be that, I don't know because I don't have the data to tell you one way or another." This is why the article is an opinion piece. No way would the paper publish this as a news article without support of the claims and fact checking everything about the claims.
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Old 04-11-2020, 11:30 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee View Post
This website and its posters do seem extremely aggressive lately. Zero tolerance for difference of opinion. Quite disappointing.
Like anything I think itís just the flavour of the day rules. For example in the politics threads you just hear the people on the other side complain. Federally it shifted 5 years ago and lately had shifted a bit with the different dynamic. On the provincial side it was group that was active for 4 years and now itís another group. If youíre happy you donít want to post or engage.

Basically it boils down to people arenít changing their opinions on a message board so they donít engage and those who do will appear to get jumped on by the flavour of the day.
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Old 04-11-2020, 11:44 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by Manhattanboy View Post
This thread is classic. Exemplifies what happens so often on CP.

In the face of one of the biggest stories of our generation the OP decides to start a new thread on the origins of Covid-19, of the view, quite fairly, that perhaps there should be a separate discussion as to the origins of the virus, particularly in light of the repeated denials, cover-ups and misinformation on the part of the Chinese government that in no small part resulted in tens of thousands of deaths that likely could have been avoided.

The OP posts an interesting story, provides the source, and suggests that the journalist presents a convincing argument. Nothing more. He doesn't quote it for the truth. He leaves it up to us to form of our own opinions. He concludes by noting, which is well accepted, that regardless of the the origin of the virus the Chinese government knew full well what was happening, did not act nearly quickly enough and failed miserably in their efforts to keep the virus contained.

What happened next was entirely predictable. Serial posters like AFC, who, as noted, rarely misses an opportunity to present himself as the resident CP expert on everything, immediately jumps on the case and rescues us all from any possible misconception that there might be something to the story, and concludes that based on the statements of "every credible scientist he has heard" that the story is absolute garbage. Of course we are required to rely on AFC's opinion as to what constitutes credible science.

Others quickly jump on the bandwagon. The OP should be "embarrassed" for posting the story and is forced to admit that he doesn't necessarily believe the journalist. He never said he did in the first place. Another scolds him for bad form in not qualifying his post with the usual "interesting if true" lest we draw the wrong conclusion that he must believe the story to be true.

And of course, out of remorse for starting the discussion, he is forced to walk things back (he should not have been required to post any follow-up in the first place), having been shamed to confess that he really doesn't know what to believe.

Never change CP.
"Interesting if true" is basically a CP meme at this point. I'll stand by while you work to confirm.
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