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Location: A simple man leading a complicated life....
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Originally Posted by Parallex
Okey... what about the 19 year old who is paying rent? Or the 19 year old whose parents let them live in their home who works to afford collage tuition (instead of working to afford rent)? Why should a 17 year 9 month get paid less to do the same job as a 18 year 1 month old in the same circumstances (or where-ever they set the "youth" cutoff)?
Work is work. You shouldn't get paid less to do the same job based strictly on age and what you do with the money (be it rent/tuition/spending) should be irrelevant... you get paid for the job you do not for what you do with the money after you earn it.
If you're a small business owner whose looking to hire someone, he/she has a couple of choices. You can hire a teenager and spend the extra money and time training the person or you can hire someone much older with experience to do the same job. There's an excellent chance the teenager gets passed over for the older person who doesn't need to be trained. Minimum wage as it is now hurts the teens and youth.
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One of the issue's that hasn't been discussed as much as it should is the role of increased expenses on business's in Alberta and Canada as a whole.
If we go back to the economic boom times prior to 2015, a lot if business's were paying a higher wage than the minimum in order to attract staff, not all were but a lot.
A bigger issue than a small business's paying some teenager who used to work for $12 an hour, $15 an hour should be other costs. Property taxes for commercial owners have skyrocketed for a lot, to the tune of in some cases of like $50k a year. This has the added effect of increasing rent's on commercial property or keeping the existing rent the same despite vacancy and a downturn in the general economy.
We have carbon taxes, we have utility rates that have gone up, garbage collection, recycling bin's, changes to personal and business taxes that affect the business owner, we have liquor taxes, we have delivery costs and supplier costs, there is a HUGE explosion in delivery app's like Skip the Dishes, Uber Eats etc. They are now taking 25-30%. There is increased credit card transaction fee's as less and less people are paying with cash. Increased technology spend as well in today's "connected" environment.
There has been SO many increases to so many things all the while in the general economy thing's aren't rosy and people are not dining out as much as before. It's just getting expensive all around to go out for a lot of people. It's not so much the corporation's and the large chain's I feel sorry for it's more the actual mom and pop stores and small business's that are actually small.
I am Greek, a huge portion of the Greek community in Calgary has or has been in the restaurant/bar business, myself included. There have been places that have been family owned in Calgary for 40+ year's, gone through how many recession's and downturns and are INCREDIBLY efficiently run from years of experience, and some of them are suffering terribly business wise.
We are literally going into year 5 of a big downturn and with very little end in sight. Everybody needs to keep a lid on costs but what can you REALLY cut in some ways after you cut to the bone?? Perhaps some entry level teenager doesn't deserve to be on the receiving end of some of this anger but let's not dismiss employers and business's owners concerns either.
Good luck to all
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Since 2015, restaurants across Alberta have been struggling to survive a perfect storm of tax increases and painful policy changes, against the backdrop of a weak provincial economy. We asked foodservice operators to share their stories about the realities of doing business in Alberta.
This video does a poor job of conveying a legitimate message. Interviewing business owners about tough times but providing no context to numbers to demonstrate that now makes the business owners sound more like they’re just whining about having less money vs. actually going out of business.
But what they should have all said and I personally believe to be true (although it’s a nebulous/ grey/ undefined topic) is stuff about risk not justifying lower reward.
A business owner usually works way way way harder than the everyday employee Joe plus they have usually assumed all or most of the risk but they (usually? Or the way it’s supposed to work?) therefore get more reward.
If you’ve taxed the #### out of everything so that the reward no longer justifies the risk there is no point. But none of these business owners say they’re shutting down. None of them say they’ve now decided to give up because of reduced money. So the video needs more context. If things are $80K more expensive for you but your revenues are $3,000,000 vs. $100,000, it is a world of difference if people should care about this as a problem.
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Work is work. You shouldn't get paid less to do the same job based strictly on age and what you do with the money (be it rent/tuition/spending) should be irrelevant... you get paid for the job you do not for what you do with the money after you earn it.
At a lower minumum wage, whole new jobs are created that simply don't make sense when paying someone more.
For example: restaurants cannot afford to pay a dishwasher $15/hr. Instead, they may ask prep cooks making $15/hr to also help washing dishes and as a result drop speed of service or cut items from recipe's to save time. At $12/hr a full time dishwasher may make more sense, thereby creating a whole new full or part time job and also allowing increase in service levels.
It's not about paying people less to do the same job, it's about CREATING jobs for people willing or deserving of less pay.
I suspect the above does not happen in a job constrained environment.
There is no incentive after creating these efficiencies to give them up. New jobs would only be created when people are able to threaten to take other jobs with better working conditions.
The dishwasher isn’t getting rehired unless the prep cook has an opportunity somewhere else that he doesn’t have to wash dishes.
This video does a poor job of conveying a legitimate message. Interviewing business owners about tough times but providing no context to numbers to demonstrate that now makes the business owners sound more like they’re just whining about having less money vs. actually going out of business.
But what they should have all said and I personally believe to be true (although it’s a nebulous/ grey/ undefined topic) is stuff about risk not justifying lower reward.
A business owner usually works way way way harder than the everyday employee Joe plus they have usually assumed all or most of the risk but they (usually? Or the way it’s supposed to work?) therefore get more reward.
If you’ve taxed the #### out of everything so that the reward no longer justifies the risk there is no point. But none of these business owners say they’re shutting down. None of them say they’ve now decided to give up because of reduced money. So the video needs more context. If things are $80K more expensive for you but your revenues are $3,000,000 vs. $100,000, it is a world of difference if people should care about this as a problem.
While you're not wrong I think a big problem is that most of these people are in it and invested.
They cant just quit. And then do what? Get a job? That dont exist?
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While you're not wrong I think a big problem is that most of these people are in it and invested.
They cant just quit. And then do what? Get a job? That dont exist?
I think on the restaurant side most people buy a dream rather than make a sound business investment. If you didn’t enter the investment rattionaly you aren’t going leave it rationally either.
I think on the restaurant side most people buy a dream rather than make a sound business investment. If you didn’t enter the investment rattionaly you aren’t going leave it rationally either.
Man....there are days when I'm convinced that you're not a complete idiot.
This isnt one of them.
Restaurants can make money. But its hard. The point is that the Government doesnt need to make it unnecessarily harder.
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Last edited by Locke; 02-14-2019 at 09:56 AM.
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While you're not wrong I think a big problem is that most of these people are in it and invested.
They cant just quit. And then do what? Get a job? That dont exist?
I tend to think there is plenty of other jobs available, but people are avoiding an underemployment situation. Lowe's, for example, is hiring 700 people in Alberta this month for various positions. But I don't think many business owners are going to want that type of job (but I could be wrong too).
I tend to think there is plenty of other jobs available, but people are avoiding an underemployment situation. Lowe's, for example, is hiring 700 people in Alberta this month for various positions. But I don't think many business owners are going to want that type of job (but I could be wrong too).
Thats brilliant.
We should be squeezing the hell out of small businesses to the point of shutting them to get more people to work for minimum wage at foreign big-box stores.
That logic is so insanely amazing. And it's got levels!
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This Post Has Been Distilled for the Eradication of Seemingly Incurable Sadness.
If you are flammable and have legs, you are never blocking a Fire Exit. - Mitch Hedberg
We should be squeezing the hell out of small businesses to the point of shutting them to get more people to work for minimum wage at foreign big-box stores.
That logic is so insanely amazing. And it's got levels!
My response to you was when you made this quote:
Quote:
They cant just quit. And then do what? Get a job? That dont exist?
There are jobs out there. Jobs exist.
If a small business can't make it, there are job options for people who need to find a job. More power to that small business owner if they can survive and thrive.
If a small business can't make it, there are job options for people who need to find a job. More power to that small business owner if they can survive and thrive.
Don't be obtuse.
And my response was (or should have been) why are we systemically wringing out small business owners like a Janitor's mop after a Mafia Hit?
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This Post Has Been Distilled for the Eradication of Seemingly Incurable Sadness.
If you are flammable and have legs, you are never blocking a Fire Exit. - Mitch Hedberg
We should be squeezing the hell out of small businesses to the point of shutting them to get more people to work for minimum wage at foreign big-box stores.
That logic is so insanely amazing. And it's got levels!
Wait, wait, wait!
"If you can't afford to pay everybody a "living" wage, you don't deserve to employ anybody."
"Those greedy mother####ing small business owners deserve to go bankrupt."
And my response was (or should have been) why are we systemically wringing out small business owners like a Janitor's mop after a Mafia Hit?
No one wants small business to be squeezed out, but that has been an ongoing threat for small business owners in any province, in any city. Small businesses get squeezed out all the time, so their product/service needs to provide something that the big boys can't, whether it be quality, reputation, customer service, etc.
Minimum wage or not, that battle is fought by restaurant owners - nay, retail owners in general - in a capitalist economy.
No one wants small business to be squeezed out, but that has been an ongoing threat for small business owners in any province, in any city. Small businesses get squeezed out all the time, so their product/service needs to provide something that the big boys can't, whether it be quality, reputation, customer service, etc.
Minimum wage or not, that battle is fought by restaurant owners - nay, retail owners in general - in a capitalist economy.
Good Lord man. For someone who could spell 'obtuse' I'd at least thought you knew what it meant.
Being in business for yourself is hard. There are countless challenges.
How can we rationally, as a society, say that small businesses are a corner-stone of our economy and then turn right around and screw those very same people over 8 ways from Sunday?
Its not about being a 'Capitalist Society' its actually the exact opposite. The Government sets the rules of the game. The rules seem to be constantly changing and are disturbingly not in favour of small businesses.
Perhaps the Government feels like Small Business owners are too uppity or are succeeding too much despite all evidence to the contrary.
Or maybe they're morons who dont understand the economic concept of a solid tax base as opposed to the strong fiscal policy that is the equivalent of mugging a liquor store.
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This Post Has Been Distilled for the Eradication of Seemingly Incurable Sadness.
If you are flammable and have legs, you are never blocking a Fire Exit. - Mitch Hedberg
Man....there are days when I'm convinced that you're not a complete idiot.
This isnt one of them.
Restaurants can make money. But its hard. The point is that the Government doesnt need to make it unnecessarily harder.
60% of non-chain restaurants fail the first year, 80% over 3 years.
Your statement of restaurants can make money but it’s hard - lines up pretty nicely with my statement of people buying a dream rather than making a sound investment. It’s almost like you agree a restaurant isn’t the best investment one can make.
I generally agree that the government didn’t need the last minimum wage increase and that it was too much too quickly with limited data on the affect. That wasn’t what the post I was responding to was addressing. You said that people don’t leave their businesses because there aren’t other jobs.
I disagree, they don’t quit because they didn’t make a rational investment in the first place. The only way to open a restaurant is with someone else’s money. Even successful ones barely give decent return on Capital Invested.
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Good Lord man. For someone who could spell 'obtuse' I'd at least thought you knew what it meant.
Being in business for yourself is hard. There are countless challenges.
How can we rationally, as a society, say that small businesses are a corner-stone of our economy and then turn right around and screw those very same people over 8 ways from Sunday?
Its not about being a 'Capitalist Society' its actually the exact opposite. The Government sets the rules of the game. The rules seem to be constantly changing and are disturbingly not in favour of small businesses.
Perhaps the Government feels like Small Business owners are too uppity or are succeeding too much despite all evidence to the contrary.
Or maybe they're morons who dont understand the economic concept of a solid tax base as opposed to the strong fiscal policy that is the equivalent of mugging a liquor store.
Exactly. The government even has their own racket going with Energy Efficiency Alberta, not subject to any of these conditions.
They can pay whatever wages they want to and there's no requirement to turn even a fraction of a profit. Margins are a fool's game Locke.
Those same rules are allowing some restaurants / small businesses to continue to survive and thrive. Why are restaurants continuing to open across Alberta then? Spending on restaurants is just as good as it was pre-recession, and there are many, many options for people to enjoy. I am not sure why you are lumping restaurants/small businesses that are making it work? Maybe the business model has changed - including the effect Skip the Dishes has had on the local restaurant economy, which has resulted in an exploding market for direct-to-home restaurant sales and the emergence of Ghost kitchens across the province.
I agree with government having to relax some of their business tightening decisions, but at some time small businesses have to play the game within the given system - there are thousands of businesses out there doing just that and not in trouble.
I'd say most of the hurt is from huge increases in property taxes (which get paid whether or not your business is making a profit), and some from the new asinine vacation pay rule.
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