You can have all the resources that Hollywood can afford, but if your director or writer (or unholy union of the two roles in one person) suck, then the whole thing is toast. The only thing that’s comparably destructive to a movie is multiple reshoots with a revolving door of writers and directors.
RLM pretty much sums it up with wisdom from Rich Evans.
"This movie is going to be awful."
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Could you imagine what we would have got if Favreau and Filoni were handed the keys to the final trilogy? A combination of excellent character driven story with practical, non-forced nostalgia because of a love of the SW universe.
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Could you imagine what we would have got if Favreau and Filoni were handed the keys to the final trilogy? A combination of excellent character driven story with practical, non-forced nostalgia because of a love of the SW universe.
Its not even just that, we'd have gotten a plan and a story. And characters who didnt suck and that we cared about.
Its not a high bar.
Again, go through that trilogy and tell me if there is one character you give half a crap about. My answer is a hard 'No.'
Such a mangled mess. You had a chance to bridge the Universe with the old characters to an entirely new cast and they totally flushed it.
Not only do we as an audience not care about any of the characters, the actors dont want to come back....its just an unmitigated disaster.
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I think you're right Locke but for different reasons.
In the PT, I'll admit, I cared about Anakin only as far as the fall goes, but he was pretty much a unlikeable character, through either poor dialogue, or poor framing.
I did care about Obi-Wan, and I certainly cared about Palpatine because he was an amazing character.
In the PT, in TFA, yeah I cared about Luke and Leia from a nostalgia standpoint. Certainly Han and Chewie as well. But the new characters I wasn't as engaged with. Then in TLJ Rian did these monumental shifts on the characters. Luke not only jaded but a complete Jerk for no reason. Leia became pretty cardboard like, Chewie was really there for one gag, of eating a Porg. The new characters were re-written. Finn became annoying. Poe was ruined from the first scene with the prank phone call. And though I really like Ridley and I think she tried really hard, there was just no emotional connection.
We can say all we want about the OT and its poor and stilted dialogue in ANH and ROTJ, but the characters got passed that.
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I think you're right Locke but for different reasons.
In the PT, I'll admit, I cared about Anakin only as far as the fall goes, but he was pretty much a unlikeable character, through either poor dialogue, or poor framing.
I did care about Obi-Wan, and I certainly cared about Palpatine because he was an amazing character.
In the PT, in TFA, yeah I cared about Luke and Leia from a nostalgia standpoint. Certainly Han and Chewie as well. But the new characters I wasn't as engaged with. Then in TLJ Rian did these monumental shifts on the characters. Luke not only jaded but a complete Jerk for no reason. Leia became pretty cardboard like, Chewie was really there for one gag, of eating a Porg. The new characters were re-written. Finn became annoying. Poe was ruined from the first scene with the prank phone call. And though I really like Ridley and I think she tried really hard, there was just no emotional connection.
We can say all we want about the OT and its poor and stilted dialogue in ANH and ROTJ, but the characters got passed that.
You only cared about 'Original Characters' because you were previously invested in them and wanted to know more.
All the new characters have been completely bland garbage.
But they didnt have to be.
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You only cared about 'Original Characters' because you were previously invested in them and wanted to know more.
All the new characters have been completely bland garbage.
But they didnt have to be.
I'm not disagreeing at all, and the shame is you're right, they could have been more
Finn's a former stormtrooper, kidnapped as a child and brainwashed, probably killed in the name of the First Order. Got through that in about a minute and his primary role was to be the wise cracking wooh guy.
Daisy - I loved the inital idea of her, she was tough, raised on her own, was basically a slave. When she fought Ren, she fought like she was channeling the dark side. Who were her parents. Then the second movie over powered her and the force and her skills came easily. She completely flattened out in the third and final movie.
Poe - Best fighter pilot in the galaxy in the first one, but in the second one, became a serious ahole.
Whats her face Rose - Loses her sister, gets over it to get mad at a planet. Saves Finn from heroically sacrificing himself to save the Rebels and awkwardly proclaims her love and then is completely pushed into the background in the third moving and completely rebuffed by Finn.
I'm going to argue that Rian completely wrecked his primary characters. The biggest problem though is that none of the villains approached the level of jeopardy that Darth Vader and Palpatine provided in the original.
Hux - Was decent in the first one, conniving and in command. In the second film they made him a idiot, in the third movie he was a spy with an inconsequential death
Snoke - First movie, who is he? Plageuis, Sidious reborn, there were theories that he was Mace. In the second movie he was a guy wearing elf shoes and a bathrobe and might as well have worn a red uniform
Ren - First movie, the non surprising reveal that he's Ben Skywalker. Wasn't as much evil as a confused teenager with serious anger issues. In the second movie he was Danny from Game of Thrones, I'm going to break the wheel blah blah. In the third movie meh. He wasn't menacing, he wasn't frightening. He was just there.
I'd argue that TFA, laid down some nice beats that could have made them good characters going forward. But Rian butchered it all and made them unlikeable or hard to care about. And the third movie was JJ's attempt to repair the damage and get the trilogy over with.
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what the hell would have been the problem with just letting JJ do the whole trilogy, if nothing else but for the sake of consistency? his movie smashed the box office and got everyone excited for the next chapter, so let's completely switch gears for episodes 8 and 9?
even if you found TFA formulaic, at least having the same guy see his storyline through would have guaranteed some semblance of a coherent narrative. I don't understand at all what they had to gain by rotating through a bunch of other guys with completely different directing/screenwriting backgrounds and styles.
Hey Avengers Infinity War was the film event of 2018, great job Russo brothers! ok, you're up Paul Thomas Anderson. here's the keys to Endgame, let's take this baby home!
what the hell would have been the problem with just letting JJ do the whole trilogy, if nothing else but for the sake of consistency? his movie smashed the box office and got everyone excited for the next chapter, so let's completely switch gears for episodes 8 and 9?
even if you found TFA formulaic, at least having the same guy see his storyline through would have guaranteed some semblance of a coherent narrative. I don't understand at all what they had to gain by rotating through a bunch of other guys with completely different directing/screenwriting backgrounds and styles.
Hey Avengers Infinity War was the film event of 2018, great job Russo brothers! ok, you're up Paul Thomas Anderson. here's the keys to Endgame, let's take this baby home!
My guess is that JJ didn't lay out the whole trilogy, nor did KK. TFA was built as a stand alone, I very much doubt that they had an idea of the Final Order and the return of Palpatine, but Star Wars fans were so negative towards TLJ that they knew that they were left with a weak villian duo in Ren and Hux, and they shoe horned Palpatine in, with the whole change the Sith mentality to the point that I groaned at his whole kill me and I'll basically jump into your body idea.
Oh and mounting super weapons on every star destroyer that were too close to the Stellar Converter on the ships of ID4.
There was a clever screw you to Rian in that movie when Ray tries to throw the light sabre in the fire and Luke's ghost catches it and lectures her on handling the weapon with more respect.
The one thing with George, that I liked was that he mapped out the original trilogy through the whole story.
Even the PT was mapped out.
Where George was weak is simple. He has trouble writing character dialogue. He's a brilliant world builder but the day to day detail stuff and fleshing out he struggles with.
In the case of the ST, I don't even believe they had a good world builder. The first movie, fine was a reboot of ANH, but after that it was a meandering story line that just didn't interconnect.
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Daisy Ridley mentioned a story outline from JJ that RJ took and tomahawk dunked into the garbage can. even if he finished filming TFA and had no idea what the actual story was next, wouldn't standard practice be for Disney to drive a dump truck full of million dollar bills and gold bullion to JJ's front door and kindly request that he continue what he started?
common hollywood sense did not prevail, and the only explanation that remains is this
I was lukewarm on TFA, but it laid a foundation for something that could have led to an engaging overarching story.
I would have handled Snoke a bit differently and not have ever involved sidious in his creation, but his general menacing demeanor worked as a baddie (could he just wear sith robes and not a gold kimono?). I would have been fine if he didn't connect to anything prior to the trilogy. Original content and characters are a good thing.
As for character stuff, the middle installment should've continued to lean on Poe and Finn's bromance and Rey and Finn's friendship as both worked and had chemistry, but Rian had them all split up for most of the film which killed the endearing dynamics that they had going for them in TFA which was half of what drove that film.
Rey's path to becoming a Jedi should have not been a cakewalk. Luke should have challenged her abilities in TLJ and not by being a recluse dick. Even a rehash of Dagoba would have been miles better. Luke could say she's unable to find balance, has too much anger, and then you have yoda step in to convince Luke otherwise just like Obi-Wan convinced yoda to not give up on Luke.
Keep Ben/Kylo's wrestling with the light and dark cause that was interesting, but should have tuned down the tantrums after TFA significantly.
Not abandoning the lightsaber storyline that TFA started would've been nice. There could be an interesting backstory there that doesn't end with Luke tossing it.
To me, they didn't need Palpatine at all. The Sith should have died when he went down the Shaft, and when Vader died. Rule of two and all that.
I'm ok with the idea of Snoke and Ren, but I really think it would have been cool if someone like Luke had fallen to the dark side. Would have loved it and you know what, it would have made sense.
Or had Ben as a good Jedi who in a search for knowledge found Palpatines holocron and his promise of power and fallen.
Ray really should have had her a$$ kicked in her first fight with Ren, like seriously, it would have made Ren look powerful, and a reason for her to find Skywalker.
Snoke should have stayed in the background until the third movie.
No stupid Diade in the force, I hated that.
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To me, they didn't need Palpatine at all. The Sith should have died when he went down the Shaft, and when Vader died. Rule of two and all that.
I'm ok with the idea of Snoke and Ren, but I really think it would have been cool if someone like Luke had fallen to the dark side. Would have loved it and you know what, it would have made sense.
Or had Ben as a good Jedi who in a search for knowledge found Palpatines holocron and his promise of power and fallen.
Ray really should have had her a$$ kicked in her first fight with Ren, like seriously, it would have made Ren look powerful, and a reason for her to find Skywalker.
Snoke should have stayed in the background until the third movie.
No stupid Diade in the force, I hated that.
It was the first eyeroll moment of many to come.
Rey being overpowered from the start killed much of any chance for tension or dread. In any hero's journey you need struggle and setbacks followed by some kind of redemption. They even managed to abandon the basics of compelling storytelling. Not to be that person, but in a lot of ways with Rey it felt like the "girl power" show. Rey kicking Kylo's ass multiple times, despite little to no experience. Rey showing older and wiser Luke how to not be a coward. Rey getting a rescue mission only to not need any saving whatsoever. Rey declaring her own identity without seeking said family's blessing. Rey saving helpless resistance survivors from the tunnels. Rey exploding ships with her angry face. Rey taking down the biggest baddie of all no problem while Ben is thrown down a hole. At least have her need the help of her friends at some point along the way. She didn't need anybody, her buddies just served as her audience that sometimes became liabilities by trying to step in and do things.
Daisy is a great actress but they totally butchered writing her character.
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Rey being overpowered from the start killed much of any chance for tension or dread. In any hero's journey you need struggle and setbacks followed by some kind of redemption. They even managed to abandon the basics of compelling storytelling. Not to be that person, but in a lot of ways with Rey it felt like the "girl power" show. Rey kicking Kylo's ass multiple times, despite little to no experience. Rey showing older and wiser Luke how to not be a coward. Rey getting a rescue mission only to not need any saving whatsoever. Rey declaring her own identity without seeking said family's blessing. Rey saving helpless resistance survivors from the tunnels. Rey exploding ships with her angry face. Rey taking down the biggest baddie of all no problem while Ben is thrown down a hole. At least have her need the help of her friends at some point along the way. She didn't need anybody, her buddies just served as her audience that sometimes became liabilities by trying to step in and do things.
Daisy is a great actress but they totally butchered writing her character.
They didnt do anything compelling or interesting with any of the characters.
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Again? Rehashing this all again? Let the wounds close people. I need it. You need it. We all need it. But nope, lets take those dirty fingers and pry open that almost sealed wound and start digging around.
Also, Finn had to be one of the most wasted characters of all time. It was such a great opportunity to see the other side the Empire and the trauma the stormtroopers suffer. Instead we get a series of untimely catch phrases being constantly blurted out.
Also, if Disney was going to have their first gay kiss in SW, why not have it grow organically from the story. I demand my Poe/Finn bromance be taken to the next level!
Also, Finn had to be one of the most wasted characters of all time. It was such a great opportunity to see the other side the Empire and the trauma the stormtroopers suffer. Instead we get a series of untimely catch phrases being constantly blurted out.
Also, if Disney was going to have their first gay kiss in SW, why not have it grow organically from the story. I demand my Poe/Finn bromance be taken to the next level!
TFA touched on the residual trauma/ptsd from his past and I appreciated that. Having Finn wake up in cold sweats in TLJ from flashbacks and even using his force sensitivity in a bad way as a result of how it messed him up would make his storyline way more compelling.
I would not have even minded Poe and Finn becoming a thing, the problem is I wouldn't trust Disney to do it tastefully and not in a forced manner. It would be cringey if they pushed a gay couple just for the sake of it without it developing organically and believably within the story. And it felt like they did a lot of things just for the sake of it.
TFA touched on the residual trauma/ptsd from his past and I appreciated that. Having Finn wake up in cold sweats in TLJ from flashbacks and even using his force sensitivity in a bad way as a result of how it messed him up would make his storyline way more compelling.
I would not have even minded Poe and Finn becoming a thing, the problem is I wouldn't trust Disney to do it tastefully and not in a forced manner. It would be cringey if they pushed a gay couple just for the sake of it without it developing organically and believably within the story. And it felt like they did a lot of things just for the sake of it.
It might be the first story arc to have been decided exclusively by a 'Jump to Conclusions' Mat. Or in lieu of that, perhaps a dartboard?
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