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Old 10-02-2017, 05:58 PM   #21
Itse
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I feel the current independence movement has more to do with the unpopularity of the Madrid governments than ethnolinguistic identity or history.

Of course the Catalan government isn't likely to be any better, but people don't tend to follow local politics enough to know that.

I would highly recommend people read the Three Myths about Catalonia Independece Movement, written by a Spanish commentator but published (and thus effectively backed) by the highly respected pan-European think-tank ECFR.

Here's a few bits.

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The pro-independence bloc, which enjoys a wafer-thin majority, rode roughshod over Catalonia’s parliamentary rules and the rights of opposition MPs. The two pieces of legislation were rushed through in a late-night session against the warnings of the legal attorneys of the Catalan Parliament and ignoring the request of opposition MPs for an opinion of the Council of Statutory Guarantees, to which they are entitled under Catalan law.

As a result the opposition bloc (made up of Socialists, liberal Ciudadanos, the People's Party and some members of the leftist Catalunya Sí Que Es Pot) left the session in protest and took no part in the vote. The Spanish Constitutional Court suspended the legislation, but the ruling forces in Catalonia have vowed to ignore its rulings, and pushed forward nonetheless. Indeed, they have announced that they will declare independence whether the Spanish Government allows for such a vote or not, effectively making the referendum a plebiscite on a decision already taken by a ruling majority.
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Rather than a David vs Goliath struggle, the Catalan issue is a complex clash of democratic legitimacies: the current majority in the Catalan Parliament vs the majority in the Spanish Parliament. Many Catalans (though not a majority according to most polls) want outright independence, but many Spaniards want a say in the future of their country too. And while the Madrid authorities’ mostly legalistic approach has been met with strong criticisms (sometimes justifiably so), it rests on an impeccably democratic claim: Rajoy has no mandate to allow for a vote of self-determination in Catalonia without substantial reform of the Spanish constitution first – and this requires support from Spaniards.
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Hiding undemocratic intent under a democratic façade, the ruling forces in Catalonia are closer to the illiberal, majoritarian politics embodied by Poland’s PiS than to the righteous struggle of the Baltics unshackling themselves from the USSR (their preferred comparison).
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This is being driven by Brexit-style populism, evident in the repetition of hollow but powerful slogans (“Let the Catalans Vote” echoeing Brexit’s “Take back control”). In a context of dire austerity measures (imposed by the then-Catalan government of moderate nationalists) and discontent with the Constitutional Court’s clipping in 2010 of parts of the Statute (upon a constitutional appeal by Rajoy’s party, then in opposition), “Spain” provided a convenient scapegoat, skyrocketing an otherwise minority wish for independence.
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Old 10-27-2017, 08:30 AM   #22
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Looks like things are about to kick off in Catalonia. They,be declared independence and minutes later the Spanish Senate gave the Spanish PM power to impose direct rule. Might get violent when they send in the troops to physically take control of the Parliament. Interesting to see which side the Catalan police take.
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Old 10-27-2017, 10:17 AM   #23
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From what I hear the Catalan Police will probably be pulled off the streets if the troops go in and they'll enforce the law.

Nasty situation all around.
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Old 10-27-2017, 10:51 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch View Post
From what I hear the Catalan Police will probably be pulled off the streets if the troops go in and they'll enforce the law.

Nasty situation all around.
Oh great, its always good when you make soldiers also the police. Thats never gone wrong historically.
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Old 10-27-2017, 10:57 AM   #25
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What is it they would have to do to have a referendum that Spain will recognize as legal?
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Old 10-27-2017, 11:52 AM   #26
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What is it they would have to do to have a referendum that Spain will recognize as legal?
Technically nothing as I understand Catalan independence would violate the constitution.
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Old 10-27-2017, 11:56 AM   #27
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Quote:
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What is it they would have to do to have a referendum that Spain will recognize as legal?
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Technically nothing as I understand Catalan independence would violate the constitution.
They would need to amend the constitution to allow this sort of vote; which I would imagine none of Spain would support (beyond Catalonia and Basque) since immediately would mean the loss of those two large pieces from Spain.
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Old 10-27-2017, 12:48 PM   #28
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While Catalan region is an important part of the country, it is important to keep in mind that the rain in spain falls mainly on the plain, and therefore its agricultural contributions are minimal.
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Old 10-27-2017, 12:58 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Locke View Post
Oh great, its always good when you make soldiers also the police. Thats never gone wrong historically.
From the Siege

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General William Devereaux: The Army is a broadsword, not a scalpel. Trust me, senator, you do not want the Army in an American city.
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Old 10-27-2017, 01:20 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch View Post
From the Siege
I am not a military man per se, but I am familiar with the concept of using the military as civilian police. It typically does not go well.

Military personnel are drilled and trained to defeat their enemy, when you make their enemy and the civilian population they're supposed to protect one and the same it usually prefaces disaster.
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Old 10-27-2017, 03:10 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Locke View Post
I am not a military man per se, but I am familiar with the concept of using the military as civilian police. It typically does not go well.

Military personnel are drilled and trained to defeat their enemy, when you make their enemy and the civilian population they're supposed to protect one and the same it usually prefaces disaster.
It doesn't go well, Military members don't really receive training in law enforcement, they receive rules of engagement. If the rules of engagement state that there is a curfew, they will enforce the curfew.

They will make their presence felt, they are out there to intimidate, and if you go against their rules of engagement, ie rioting etc, they will deal with it in the exact way that its ordered and send in the medics after.

I remember reading a handbook on civilian enforcement that I found at a surplus store, and half of the book was about the deployment of water canons, and how to use a shield and baton.
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