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Old 10-08-2017, 12:24 AM   #61
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Wow, 3 goals, 2 assists for Janko but also a TON more opportunities.

The defense looks pretty bad with all the giveaways there.
Hathaway and Mangiapane also looking pretty good.
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Old 10-08-2017, 09:06 AM   #62
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Excluding Hathaway (not a top 9 player at the NHL level), Mangiapane mist already be second in line after Janko when it comes to call-ups. Not a good sign for guys like Shinkaruk and Poirier at all. But good on Eatbread, I was concerned about his size and that his OHL numbers were inflated. Turns out I was wrong and he's just a really good prospect.
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Old 10-08-2017, 02:10 PM   #63
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The Mavericks have just announced that they have traded Ty Rimmer. He was their third goalie behind Parsons and McDonald, so it looks like the two of them will be the plan in the ECHL this season.
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Old 10-08-2017, 03:44 PM   #64
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The Mavericks have just announced that they have traded Ty Rimmer. He was their third goalie behind Parsons and McDonald, so it looks like the two of them will be the plan in the ECHL this season.
Here's hoping for a good season from both of them
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Old 10-09-2017, 02:32 AM   #65
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Watch House of Cards season 5 (pretty sure episode 1). Little gem of an easter egg in there for the baby flames club.
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Old 10-09-2017, 08:41 AM   #66
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The Mavericks have just announced that they have traded Ty Rimmer. He was their third goalie behind Parsons and McDonald, so it looks like the two of them will be the plan in the ECHL this season.
I can just hear the chirps right now
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Old 10-09-2017, 12:09 PM   #67
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In my opinion, Rittich and Gilles both showed enough last year to get the NHL backup spot.

I think it's just another instance of where Treliving doesn't consider our kids to ever be "ready" and we need stop-gap veterans for every spot.

Anyways sorry for derailing a bit. Glad Stockton won and of course Janko and Gilles (and Rittich) will be at the forefront of many more of those wins.
It's about developing your kids into the best players they can be.

Pretty solid argument to be made that Gillies in particular will develop best and improve the most by starting a lot of games vs backing up a lot of games. No need to rush players at the most critical position in hockey. Gillies missed a whole year due to injury and the best thing for his development is playing a lot of games.

I really don't understand why anyone would want one of our top prospects to sit on the bench and stagnate vs develop by starting a lot of games. Goalies need to see pucks to improve. Gillies isn't going to learn to be an NHL starter by not playing games.
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Old 10-10-2017, 02:39 PM   #68
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For those watching the games how is Foo doing so far? I see he has no points. Who is he playing with and is that line generating much offensively?
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Old 10-10-2017, 04:29 PM   #69
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It's about developing your kids into the best players they can be.

Pretty solid argument to be made that Gillies in particular will develop best and improve the most by starting a lot of games vs backing up a lot of games. No need to rush players at the most critical position in hockey. Gillies missed a whole year due to injury and the best thing for his development is playing a lot of games.

I really don't understand why anyone would want one of our top prospects to sit on the bench and stagnate vs develop by starting a lot of games. Goalies need to see pucks to improve. Gillies isn't going to learn to be an NHL starter by not playing games.
There's also an argument that Gillies isn't going to learn to be an NHL starter either by playing AHL games.

Jankowski isn't going to learn to be an NHL player by playing more AHL games. In fact, I would argue that the 8 minutes that he would get on the 4th line, as well as practicing with NHL players day in day out would be the best for his development. We've also seen that our fourth line sometimes have to play against McDavid and Draisaitl - playing at that speed and level is something you'll never see in the AHL regardless of how many minutes you get to play.

Ditto with Gillies, facing NHL-level shots in practice every single day, then getting 25-30 NHL games is far better for development than being an AHL starter.

I think the main difference in our philosophies is that I don't believe quantity of playing time matters - I think that 8 minutes in the NHL is a higher quality opportunity than 20 minutes in the AHL, and does not lead to stagnation.

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Old 10-10-2017, 04:48 PM   #70
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There's also an argument that Gillies isn't going to learn to be an NHL starter either by playing AHL games.

Jankowski isn't going to learn to be an NHL player by playing more AHL games. In fact, I would argue that the 8 minutes that he would get on the 4th line, as well as practicing with NHL players day in day out would be the best for his development. We've also seen that our fourth line sometimes have to play against McDavid and Draisaitl - playing at that speed and level is something you'll never see in the AHL regardless of how many minutes you get to play.

Ditto with Gillies, facing NHL-level shots in practice every single day, then getting 25-30 NHL games is far better for development than being an AHL starter.

I think the main difference in our philosophies is that I don't believe quantity of playing time matters - I think that 8 minutes in the NHL is a higher quality opportunity than 20 minutes in the AHL, and does not lead to stagnation.
You are trying to compare the development process of a forward and a goalie. There is nothing similar about them, goalies almost always take much longer to develop properly.
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Old 10-10-2017, 06:16 PM   #71
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There's also an argument that Gillies isn't going to learn to be an NHL starter either by playing AHL games.
An argument I don't see much logic in. You learn to be a professional starter by starting pro games. Not by backing up. In sports development typically involves dominating lower levels and then moving up. Gillies has not yet dominated minor pro. We're not trying to develop Gillies into a backup. He needs to learn how to win a starter's role on a pro team and learn how to cope with the ups and downs that it entails.

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Jankowski isn't going to learn to be an NHL player by playing more AHL games. In fact, I would argue that the 8 minutes that he would get on the 4th line, as well as practicing with NHL players day in day out would be the best for his development. We've also seen that our fourth line sometimes have to play against McDavid and Draisaitl - playing at that speed and level is something you'll never see in the AHL regardless of how many minutes you get to play.
Disagree. I think playing offensive players on the 4th line is a good way to really test their offensive confidence and potentially ruin it. Confidence is huge in sports. When you don't put up points on the 4th line in the NHL you can start to doubt your abilities. You may no longer make sweet plays because in the past they haven't resulted in scoring.

Practice and playing 8-10 minutes a night is not going to develop Jankowski and keep his confidence high compared to playing 15-20 mins in the AHL in all situations and scoring at will.

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Ditto with Gillies, facing NHL-level shots in practice every single day, then getting 25-30 NHL games is far better for development than being an AHL starter.
There's guys with NHL shots in the minors. Some of them have speed or size issues or are just not quite experienced enough to make the jump yet. It's the 2nd best league in the world. And the best place to learn how to be an NHLer if you're not ready yet.

I'd say starting in the minors is clearly better than backing up in the NHL. How do you learn to shrug off bad starts when you get benched for a couple weeks after one bad start in the NHL? Again its a confidence thing. Gillies can have one bad game in the NHL and the coach may go with Smith for the next two weeks. It's not good psychologically for Gillies, he may beat himself up over his starts with no way to show he's improving. He won't have a chance to rebound and shrug it off because Smith will get the bulk of the workload. Better to have him play night after night in the minors and learn how to adapt to and shrug off bad games, how to have the consistency a starter needs.

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I think the main difference in our philosophies is that I don't believe quantity of playing time matters - I think that 8 minutes in the NHL is a higher quality opportunity than 20 minutes in the AHL, and does not lead to stagnation.
That is one difference. But IMO the biggest difference is that you aren't taking into account confidence and the psychological aspects of dominating a lower league vs struggling in the NHL. The positive benefits of having confidence from truly dominating lower leagues and then moving from the AHL to the position you're being developed into. There are very negative confidence problems when you're put in bit positions (backup goalie, 4th line player) and you don't succeed. If Gillies struggles as an NHL backup then GG loses confidence in playing him and Gillies loses confidence in himself and has to sit for weeks thinking about his mistakes. If Jankowski struggles on the 4th line of the NHL team then he loses his offensive confidence and stops making as many skilled plays. Arguably Brouwer's biggest problem right now is his lack of confidence. Confidence is such a huge and underrated part of hockey because we can't measure it.

IMO the ideal is Gillies becoming an elite AHL starter. And then taking over from Smith and becoming an NHL starter. I don't think backing up in the NHL is something necessary or required. I think dominating the AHL is a required step for his development. I don't think he's ready because he hasn't dominated the AHL and proven himself as a pro starter. And IMO if he's not ready then he's not going to develop as quickly or at all as a NHL backup.

IMO the ideal for Jankowski is dominating the AHL (which he's done) but then being handed a top 3 line role (which we currently don't have room to give him.) You don't want him to play a 4th line, dump it in, cycle and grind with plugs style of game. You want him to play a skill game with offensive creativity. He'll succeed more easily in the position he's suited for. He's a skilled centre so he needs to be playing on a scoring line.

Does that explain it?

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Old 10-10-2017, 09:51 PM   #72
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I am actually higher on Gillies than I have ever been in the past, but he is most definitely better off in staying in the AHL, barring injury to the existing goalies in Calgary. As FDW posted above, those are good points.

A note of caution - Many on these boards felt that Irving was ready for the NHL, but in practically every season he lost his starting gig to another goalie. He never really dominated down there, and when he was up here, he never looked NHL-caliber to me.

Same thing with Ortio (though to me, not as glaring). Ortio seemed a bit rushed into the league. Rushed out of the league even faster.

I think Rittich is a damn good prospect with more experience as a pro. If Gillies is going to be ready to get a long look in the NHL, he has to beat out Rittich for that job in the AHL. I like both of them, but they each have to wrestle that job from one another. I am not a fan of the Lack signing (though hoping to be proved wrong), but I would much rather him playing a sparse 20 or 30 games this season than having either Rittich or Gillies do that. Let them play more games and earn that chance to be backup to Smith next year. After that, a backup role is the way to go for a season in the NHL (with AHL conditioning stints as needed), and then take the reigns from Smith.

To me, that is the natural progression that the Flames have built into their timeline. Parsons will be taking over in the AHL next season with either Rittich or someone else that they find (or MacDonald, if he starts showing a bit more consistency in his game, which I think is sometimes outstanding, sometimes horrendous).

Either way, Gillies (and Rittich) are both better served this year playing regularly and not being sat for long stretches of time. Next year is the year to really start introducing whomever rises to the top to a regular NHL game, while getting the necessary reps down in the AHL if needed.

Let's not thrust a goalie prematurely into the NHL, or just allow a goalie who hasn't earned it to actually get that chance. Irving never deserved it (how many goalies supplanted him in the AHL? Keeltely, Taylor, Brust just off the top of my head. Maybe more?).

Gillies is finally in a good place getting lots of ice time and seeing lots of rubber. Let him keep focused on the task at hand and dominate before taking the next step. No need to rush him. He may even get some games in this season if injuries hit, or a bad streak, or just rest both goalies near the end of the season dependent on how many games they faced before the playoffs.
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Old 10-10-2017, 09:55 PM   #73
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@dissentowner: I'm clearly talking about the development separately. Both have excelled in the AHL, which is the only comparison I'm making between their situations.

@FDW: I think we just have a philosophical difference. Personally, I don't understand how you value AHL time so much.

Perhaps I'm not giving "confidence and psychological aspects" enough weight. My argument is that Jankowski is 100% stagnated right now because there's nothing for him to learn in the AHL. Your argument is that Janko is better served in his current stagnant state than (possibly) lose all confidence on the 4th line. My argument is that if he excels in a 4th line role, he can easily move up the lineup, but we'll never know.

For Gillies or Rittich - sure, I can take the argument that if you're ultra conservative with your players, then this year could be another development year. However, I also don't agree with your assertion that Gillies should be our #1 next year. No other starter made it that way. Gibson, Vasilevskiy, Mrazek were all backups at one point, and even Carey Price split duties with Halak for multiple seasons.

Finally, in the cap world, if you can get 3 "AHL" level players like Jankowski on your 4th line that can contribute at a 3rd line level, you're laughing all the way to the cup. On the other hand, if you have Glass, Stajan, and Brouwer who play about as well as expected for 4th liners, you're breaking even at best.
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Old 10-11-2017, 01:00 PM   #74
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@dissentowner: I'm clearly talking about the development separately. Both have excelled in the AHL, which is the only comparison I'm making between their situations.

@FDW: I think we just have a philosophical difference. Personally, I don't understand how you value AHL time so much.

Perhaps I'm not giving "confidence and psychological aspects" enough weight. My argument is that Jankowski is 100% stagnated right now because there's nothing for him to learn in the AHL. Your argument is that Janko is better served in his current stagnant state than (possibly) lose all confidence on the 4th line. My argument is that if he excels in a 4th line role, he can easily move up the lineup, but we'll never know.

For Gillies or Rittich - sure, I can take the argument that if you're ultra conservative with your players, then this year could be another development year. However, I also don't agree with your assertion that Gillies should be our #1 next year. No other starter made it that way. Gibson, Vasilevskiy, Mrazek were all backups at one point, and even Carey Price split duties with Halak for multiple seasons.

Finally, in the cap world, if you can get 3 "AHL" level players like Jankowski on your 4th line that can contribute at a 3rd line level, you're laughing all the way to the cup. On the other hand, if you have Glass, Stajan, and Brouwer who play about as well as expected for 4th liners, you're breaking even at best.
A few rebuttals

-I don't think players stagnate at lower levels. There's always things to learn, always things the coaches can help you improve on. If you're a great AHLer you can learn to improve and be an elite AHLer
-Jankowski is ready and should be playing top 3 lines in the NHL right now. I'm sure injuries or trades will make room for him within the next month or two.
-I think the chance of 4th line minutes ruining Jankowski is low but I also don't think it really helps him develop or helps his confidence. Coaches want the 4th line to play a grinding, safe game and I don't think that suits his playstyle
-in the end I don't think it's a huge deal whether Jankowski is in the AHL for a month or two vs 4th line NHL. My feelings aren't super strong on that. But I am very convinced that Gillies needed another year in the minors. Goalies take a long time to develop and I think it's much, much better for development to be starting in the AHL vs backing up in the NHL
-I would be really interested in seeing a progressive coach use his 4th line as you suggest, like a 4th scoring line with young players. But with the way most coaches use their 4th line it's really best filled with defensive veterans and grinders
-I see Gillies as our starting goalie not next year but the year after. I could see him backing up next year if he has a really strong year in the minors this year. I don't see backing up first as a requirement but with our logjam of goalies it may make sense to use Gillies as the backup next season if he truly dominates the AHL this year

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Old 10-11-2017, 10:15 PM   #75
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-I don't think players stagnate at lower levels. There's always things to learn, always things the coaches can help you improve on. If you're a great AHLer you can learn to improve and be an elite AHLer
Except that players do plateau. Players need to continually be challenged throughout their development. When they are no longer challenged they have potential to plateau and no longer develop. There's an old adage to development in baseball. You don't learn to hit major league fast balls by hitting off minor league pitchers. You don't learn to play at the speed and pace of the NHL game by playing against minor league players. Coaches can't teach you speed and can't teach you to do things at speed. That only comes with experience.

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But I am very convinced that Gillies needed another year in the minors. Goalies take a long time to develop and I think it's much, much better for development to be starting in the AHL vs backing up in the NHL
I think Gillies is in the minors until Christmas and then gets called up to be back up sometime after that. The only thing I think he needs some work on are his angles and maintaining his net. He looked really good in camp, and they really need to know if he's got it some time this season. Plus, you don't learn to stop NHL shooters by taking shots from AHL players.
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Old 10-11-2017, 10:23 PM   #76
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Gillies is still waiver exempt next season Rittich is not. It maybe Rittich backing up next year.
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Old 10-12-2017, 12:07 PM   #77
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@dissentowner: I'm clearly talking about the development separately. Both have excelled in the AHL, which is the only comparison I'm making between their situations...
I disagree that Gillies has excelled in the AHL. I thought he had a good year last year, but clearly has a ways to go to get to the NHL.
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Old 10-14-2017, 01:02 PM   #78
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Except that players do plateau. Players need to continually be challenged throughout their development. When they are no longer challenged they have potential to plateau and no longer develop. There's an old adage to development in baseball. You don't learn to hit major league fast balls by hitting off minor league pitchers. You don't learn to play at the speed and pace of the NHL game by playing against minor league players. Coaches can't teach you speed and can't teach you to do things at speed. That only comes with experience.
Yes! I totally agree with this and sticking with the baseball analogy you see more young players rapidly rising through mlb team's minor league ranks. You need to stretch players continually and they will make significant improvement this way.

I take this argument to be the basis of bringing Jankowski up as I think goalies need to face shots.

In Monahan's rookie year there was talk (especially amongst the analytics crowd) that Monahan was not ready and his underlying numbers were showing that. However, these were just hard lessons he needed to learn at then NHL level in order to improve from. Monahan did find success and scored over 20 goals. Monahan was an extremely fast learner and you've seen his subsequent rise year after year. I just think the growth players get when challenged early in their careers leads to higher ceilings in the long run.

You can't just bring up players and have them fail constantly and lose confidence however. The AHL is good for rounding out players overall games and certain details they need.

There's no way to prove one is better than other but I strongly believe in the aggressive promotion of young players if they've shown they can handle it.
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Old 10-14-2017, 01:57 PM   #79
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Overall I'm more ticked off about Jankowski missing out on a chance to be in the Calder Trophy race than any worry about him "plateauing" in the AHL. Here are the AHL GP for some older rookies who seem to have carved out top 9 forward spots along with our three older kids:



The odds are starting to go against Shinkaruk and Poirier, but Jankowski has some rope.
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Old 10-14-2017, 07:11 PM   #80
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Red Wings affiliate, Grand Rapids in town tonight.

lines
Mangiapane-Jankowski-Hathaway
Klimchuk-Hrivik-Foo
Shinkaruk-Cramarossa-Poirier
Gazdic-Pelley-Lomberg

Wotherspoon-Andersson
Kylington-Goloubef
Mattsson-Robak

Rittich


Looks like Findlay loses his spot with Hrivik in the line up.

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