[CP Story] Roster Choices and Tough Guys

[Bingo]

http://www.calgarypuck.com/2013/11/t...althy-scratch/

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Yep. It seems clear Hartley will continue to play too many of these grinders at the same time.

McGrattan - 4th liner at best
Jackman - 4th liner at best
Bouma - 4th liner at best although he has showed more hands than the other two and maybe could develop into a guy who can play some 3rd line minutes in a pinch
Galiardi - 4th/3rd liner. slightly better version of Comeau IMO

What Feaster needs to do is dump at least one of them so that Hartley can't continue to ice so many grinders. I've been a big Jackman fan in the past but he's so redundant now with Bouma finally making the show.

If we dealt Jackman for a pick and brought up a young kid I think we'd all be a lot happier.

[browna]

I understand the message. Last night's game, however, is a poor example, in theory of why those guys shouldn't be in the lineup. My interpretation, is that those guys are there to make sure liberties aren't taken with a younger/smaller roster. Fine.


This will be the third thread with this same message from me, but I don't care. Attending that game and seeing the Flames getting pushed around like with no response like that scarly reminded me of the 2002 days when we first got season tickets. Completely ridiculous that in a blow out game, the other team should then get away with what they did, with no response or pride.


-When Benn comes up and hammers Hudler, nothing is done.


-When the Stars pushed Cammalleri to the ground, then gave Monahan a facewash provoked Stempniak to fight someone 4 inches taller and 50 lbs heavier, all on the same whistle, though, you should expect some reaction from the 2 4th liners dressed for really, something that's basically their job description, nothing is done.


-When a team throws out the #1 PP to start a PP in a 6-3 game with 5 mins to go, with guys that have a combined 4 goals and 6 assists to that point, you expect that sort of disrespect, on home ice to be dealt with by the 2 guys dressed mainly for just that type of situation. Nothing was done.


Outside of the Wideman hit from behind on that penalty, and Smid willing to drop the gloves, the Flames, and specifically, McGrattan and Jackman, didn't do as they're mainly there to do.


Why nothing done? Well, the coach sent them out there on their usual (for the game) shift, once every 5 minutes. Clearly no orders were given to send a message back, otherwise those guys would be on more, and those two guys were more likley worried about taking a penalty and getting in the coaches bad books then standing up for their teammates.

IMO, there is a role for these guys to make sure that things don't get out of hand, supllimented by the guys (supposedly Bouma, though he didn't play last night and I haven't seen this from him and Galiardi), that are there to play more regular shift but still have an edge to them to counteract the opponents. Then, filter down all the way down to Gio who can and will fight when required, but shouldn't.


McGrattan especially is one that last year took a more regular shift and was a lot more effective, but IMO I think Hartley has these guys (Jackman, McGrattan, Bouma etc) scared of doing anything outside of his plan. Seems as if these guys are prevented from doing what they have instinct to do/have done their whole careers (and that is to respond), as Hartley wants their focus to be a tehnically sound shift.
Thus, instead of retribution, going off and taking some liberties as the Stars did with the Flames, they "work hard" and stay in the coaches good books and on the bench instead of popcorn row.


There is still a need for a healthy balance..pure fighters, maybe not, but rough and tumble guys that ask fewer questions before responding is not a bad thing...but after last night's embarassment, the guys on this roster meant for/having displayed that role aren't willing/able to do it when that situation arose. That feeling for me was infinitley worse then a 7-3 loss.

[ricardodw]

Do Corbin Knight and Rienhart and Ferland and Wotherspoon and Ramage develop better by being an important part of a great AHL team or being a bit player on a lottery pick NHL team?

Unless they are ready to jump into the NHL role playing more than 10 minutes a game I think that developing a winning attitude and playing in important games is better for them at this point in their career.

I like what the Flames are doing with their current NHL ready prospects:

Right now Hartley is trying to work Brodie (23), Colbourne(23), Backlund (24), Baertschi(21), Bouma(23) and Monahan(19) into the NHL. That is 6 regulars out of 18 .

If 5 out of 6 are better next year than this Hartley should get some sort of award.

That is the prime goal of this season.


Does anyone think Bouma would flourish if he got the McGrattan role and had to fight Gazdic? The Flames sit McGrattan and Jackman then it would be a surprise if Gadzic did not try to inspire the wimpy Oilers by spanking Bouma if Bouma showed up.


Gadzic is on the smallest least aggressive team in the league.

Against the LA , St.L , Dallas, Toronto. Boston teams that have figured out that small skilled teams usually fold when bullied

Montreal has a small soft skilled team and have 14 fights in 19 games....

Yep lets get rid of our fighters and see what happens to the collection of young guys led by veteran small guys Hudler, Cammalleri and Russell.

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by browna

I understand the message. Last night's game, however, is a poor example, in theory of why those guys shouldn't be in the lineup. My interpretation, is that those guys are there to make sure liberties aren't taken with a younger/smaller roster. Fine.


This will be the third thread with this same message from me, but I don't care. Attending that game and seeing the Flames getting pushed around like with no response like that scarly reminded me of the 2002 days when we first got season tickets. Completely ridiculous that in a blow out game, the other team should then get away with what they did, with no response or pride.


-When Benn comes up and hammers Hudler, nothing is done.


-When the Stars pushed Cammalleri to the ground, then gave Monahan a facewash provoked Stempniak to fight someone 4 inches taller and 50 lbs heavier, all on the same whistle, though, you should expect some reaction from the 2 4th liners dressed for really, something that's basically their job description, nothing is done.


-When a team throws out the #1 PP to start a PP in a 6-3 game with 5 mins to go, with guys that have a combined 4 goals and 6 assists to that point, you expect that sort of disrespect, on home ice to be dealt with by the 2 guys dressed mainly for just that type of situation. Nothing was done.


Outside of the Wideman hit from behind on that penalty, and Smid willing to drop the gloves, the Flames, and specifically, McGrattan and Jackman, didn't do as they're mainly there to do.


Why nothing done? Well, the coach sent them out there on their usual (for the game) shift, once every 5 minutes. Clearly no orders were given to send a message back, otherwise those guys would be on more, and those two guys were more likley worried about taking a penalty and getting in the coaches bad books then standing up for their teammates.

IMO, there is a role for these guys to make sure that things don't get out of hand, supllimented by the guys (supposedly Bouma, though he didn't play last night and I haven't seen this from him and Galiardi), that are there to play more regular shift but still have an edge to them to counteract the opponents. Then, filter down all the way down to Gio who can and will fight when required, but shouldn't.


McGrattan especially is one that last year took a more regular shift and was a lot more effective, but IMO I think Hartley has these guys (Jackman, McGrattan, Bouma etc) scared of doing anything outside of his plan. Seems as if these guys are prevented from doing what they have instinct to do/have done their whole careers (and that is to respond), as Hartley wants their focus to be a tehnically sound shift.
Thus, instead of retribution, going off and taking some liberties as the Stars did with the Flames, they "work hard" and stay in the coaches good books and on the bench instead of popcorn row.


There is still a need for a healthy balance..pure fighters, maybe not, but rough and tumble guys that ask fewer questions before responding is not a bad thing...but after last night's embarassment, the guys on this roster meant for/having displayed that role aren't willing/able to do it when that situation arose. That feeling for me was infinitley worse then a 7-3 loss.

What I got out of your well thought out post was that it isn't the role of the goon in the line-up , it is the reaction the Flames goons have taken.

The Flames have no goon waiting in the wings in the AHL. McGrattan and Jackman are by far the only guys with the physical attributes and attitude to do the job required but they are sort of calling BS on Hartley and saying what are you going to do about it.


Our Crushers think they are Rushers and we don't have anyone waiting in the wings to make them into Ushers.

[Bertuzzied]

The worst thing about our tough guys is that they don't even hit! Give me a Clutterbuck or Tootoo any day of the week.

[moon]

The Flames are already getting pushed around by SJ, St. Louis, LA with McGrattan and Jackman in the line-up.

What do either of those guys do to stop guys like Brown, Backes, Regehr, Marleau, Benn, Dillon etc. from throwing big hits? Not one of those guys are going to fight McGrattan and likely not fight, or don't care if they do, Jackman.

The best that those two goons can do out there is grab someone get a few cheap shots in and then put them team down for 5 mins, or 7 if the 2 for instigating is added on to the total. Are the young guys benefitted from the terrible Flames PK unit giving up 2 more goals a game?

And I think Bouma or definitely SOB could easily handle Gadzic. He is not exactly a fearsome guy.

It doesn't have to be all the young guys Ricardow listed called up. If you want to keep that young group together winning in Abbotsford why not a line-up of:

Stemp-Monahan-Baertschi
Cammy-Backlund-Hudler
Jones-Stajan-Galiardi
Bouma-Colborne-B.Jones
McGrattan

McGrattan can slide in if there is a real troublesome enforcer you want dealt with Bouma, Stemp, Jones x 2 can handle any middleweights giving young guys trouble plus defenseman pitch in. B. Jones out, Glencross into Galiardi's spot and Galiardi to 4th line when healthy. Leaves the Heat with their good young core to develop success and allows Calgary a roster where the 4th line isn't a total liablity but still adds sandpaper.

If B. Jones isn't your cup of tea a guy like Cody Mccormick was on waivers last year I believe and could be picked cheap this year possibly (although probably a guy Nolan will love) or someone similar to play the 4th line tough guy role and actual passable hockey.

Defensively you rotate SOB in as the 6th guy with Butler/Smith as needed for extra toughness to deal with goons.

There are so few absolute HW's out there anymore the list of fight leaders in the NHL is now populated by mainly the mid-heavies in the 210-220 range. Guys like Mccormick. Mcleod, Boll, Dorsett, Konopka, Thornton are the types we need for toughness. The can fight but also play legit hockey as well.

[Flame On]

Good points.
I agree I don't mind one of them being in the line up, hell even two.
But:
If both are in and they're going for a more physical line-up, then lets see physicality. In a blow-out we can't come back from, Jackman and McGratton should be out there killing people, not allowing opposition not to fight based on any little thing like the examples you mentioned.
Meanwhile they're not being physical in any real way, and they're not developing ANYONE they play with.
I'd be interested to see where you stand on the Backlund issue Bingo.
If you listen to people like Warrener and Boomer, they think he's played enough and there's no incremental improvement. A pattern of un-success as it were.
Or is that because he's playing with the likes of McGratton regularly?
I just can't decide.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

Yep. It seems clear Hartley will continue to play too many of these grinders at the same time.

McGrattan - 4th liner at best
Jackman - 4th liner at best
Bouma - 4th liner at best although he has showed more hands than the other two and maybe could develop into a guy who can play some 3rd line minutes in a pinch
Galiardi - 4th/3rd liner. slightly better version of Comeau IMO

What Feaster needs to do is dump at least one of them so that Hartley can't continue to ice so many grinders. I've been a big Jackman fan in the past but he's so redundant now with Bouma finally making the show.

If we dealt Jackman for a pick and brought up a young kid I think we'd all be a lot happier.

I agree. Jackman needs to be moved to ensure Bob can't continue to ice both him and McGratton. It seems like he's incapable of realizing that it's no longer 2002. McGratton in his time with the Predators who were a low skill team still spend more nights in the pressbox than on the ice and I don't understand the rationale of playing him full time.

I thought the reason they traded Tangs for Jones and brought in Galiardi and SOB was for more size so I don't understand with these guys the lineup why Bob continues to ice a 4th line that can't measure up to the average 4th line in the NHL?

It all goes back to Hartley and some of his against the grain decisions. I just don't think that he's the right coach for this rebuild as there is no defensive structure and his lines at times make no sense at all.

I still feel Jones should be playing 4th line for this team but we all know he's not one of Bob's guys.

[868904]

I think the focus shouldn't really be on Hartley dressing 2 of Jackman / McGrattan / Bouma. Lots of teams dress two tough guys and run 3 lines and it works.

The real issue is the lack of production and effort from lines 1 to 3.

All this constant whining about dressing Jackman and McGrattan over guys who aren't producing reeks of a lack of accountability.

Everyone's favourite "scorers" and "youth" are not doing their job, plain and simple.

[Miniac]

nvm

[moon]

Originally Posted by 868904

I think the focus shouldn't really be on Hartley dressing 2 of Jackman / McGrattan / Bouma. Lots of teams dress two tough guys and run 3 lines and it works.

The real issue is the lack of production and effort from lines 1 to 3.

All this constant whining about dressing Jackman and McGrattan over guys who aren't producing reeks of a lack of accountability.

Everyone's favourite "scorers" and "youth" are not doing their job, plain and simple.

Just out of curiosity (not trying to be argumentative I just can't think of any) which teams do you think run with 2 goons and run 3 lines and it works?

Also, if the 3 lines are struggling it would be nice to have a 4th line to throw out there that isn't a complete liability let alone an offensive blackhole. One of the things that have made teams like Chicago Boston and LA so success recently is having 4th lines they can throw out anytime, against any opposition and not being terrified of the results.

[killer_carlson]

I have no problem trading Jackman. I think he adds very little to the team. In fact he is on my trifecta of must-be-moved list before the franchise can move forward (Butler and stajan being the other two). Last night though, he was not the problem. I'm prepared to recognize that.

My problem with McGratton isn't McGratton at all. It's the instructions and restraints placed upon him. He is being asked to play a different role now than he has previously. He is being told "not" to fight and instead try to be a dependable player so Hartley can roll 4 lines. Thus far this season he has done the job reasonably well. Much better than I thought he could do.

However, he would be infinitely more effective if the restraints were off. I'd like to see him lead the league in scraps and force the issue. If anyone contacts our goalie or mucks with a top 6 player, he needs to deal with it. He is being instructed not to do so by our coaches.

I still think the NHL needs its policeman, but I think McGratton will be one of the last true heavyweights to play. I think in the future the policemen will be more of your O'Brien and McLeod types, guys who can regularly eat up 10 minutes of ice without being a liability.

[868904]

Originally Posted by moon

Just out of curiosity (not trying to be argumentative I just can't think of any) which teams do you think run with 2 goons and run 3 lines and it works?

Also, if the 3 lines are struggling it would be nice to have a 4th line to throw out there that isn't a complete liability let alone an offensive blackhole. One of the things that have made teams like Chicago Boston and LA so success recently is having 4th lines they can throw out anytime, against any opposition and not being terrified of the results.

The Leafs have Mclaren and Orr in the lineup regularly on the 4th line.
The Canucks have Kassian and Sestito (although Kassian is a better player than normal goons).
Avalanche have Bordeleau and Mcleod who play regularly.
Boston only has Thornton as a regular but that's only because they have team toughness everywhere else.
Montreal has Prust, Moen, and Parros playing regularly.
Chicago has Bollig and Brookbank as regulars.

All the other teams have at least one goon type guy, and the Flames have gone many nights where McGrattan was the only "goon" to dress. I think it's really overblown on this board how much ice the goons get.

And really, the past Dallas game has been the only game where the Flames have been bullied around this year. All the games prior to this, no one really wanted to mess with the Flames because of the deterrents. The Leafs thought they would but McGrattan and SOB set their tough guys straight.

At the end of the day, Lines 1 to 3 have to produce for this team to win. The 4th line isn't going to make the difference between winning and losing.

[flambers]

Personally I really like to see the Flames have a player like McGratton on the team. He doesn't take bad penalities can play his role effectively.

Remember 4th liners are 4 to 6 minutes maybe 7 minutes players a game.

Challenge is they can't have to many.

[moon]

Originally Posted by 868904

The Leafs have Mclaren and Orr in the lineup regularly on the 4th line.
The Canucks have Kassian and Sestito (although Kassian is a better player than normal goons).
Avalanche have Bordeleau and Mcleod who play regularly.
Boston only has Thornton as a regular but that's only because they have team toughness everywhere else.
Montreal has Prust, Moen, and Parros playing regularly.
Chicago has Bollig and Brookbank as regulars.

For me guys like Kassian, McLeod, Thornton, Prust, Moen, Bollig are all the types of guys we should have playing because they are not goons, they are tough guys who can play a legit 10 minutes a night. Even Orr and Mclaren are better players than McGrattan and Jackman.

All the other teams have at least one goon type guy, and the Flames have gone many nights where McGrattan was the only "goon" to dress. I think it's really overblown on this board how much ice the goons get.

And really, the past Dallas game has been the only game where the Flames have been bullied around this year. All the games prior to this, no one really wanted to mess with the Flames because of the deterrents. The Leafs thought they would but McGrattan and SOB set their tough guys straight.

I guess bullied isn't the right word but SJ and St. Louis certainly physically dominated the Flames and I haven't seen a team come in and look timid or afraid to hit anyone on the Flames at all this year. Not sure how the TO tough guys were "straightened out" by McGrattan and SOB but having seen enough of Orr and Mclaren they aren't going to change their game because of a fear of fighting anyone.

At the end of the day, Lines 1 to 3 have to produce for this team to win. The 4th line isn't going to make the difference between winning and losing.

The 4th line certainly can be the difference between winning and losing a game but agree the top 3 lines are most important. I just don't see the point on wasting the 4th line on 2 players that add zero to the team when we have a glut on forwards here and in Abbotsford that need playing time. Why not reduce the need for the top 3 lines to be so great by adding a 4th line that provides value to the team?

[Stay Golden]

I like Grats he plays a necessary role. Jackman this season however has lost his ability even as a 4th line grinder to be just that. I would rather see Reinhart/Knight get a long stay over Jackman.
Jackman's time with the Flames should be up.
Backlund should not be on the 4th line with Jackman and MaGrattan that experiment should be over, he should be with Cammy and Hudler or Cammy Stempniak.

Butler needs to sit/traded/black aced/waived i'm sick of that reject. He doesn't change to fix his mistakes he just gets worse.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by flambers

Personally I really like to see the Flames have a player like McGratton on the team. He doesn't take bad penalities can play his role effectively.

Remember 4th liners are 4 to 6 minutes maybe 7 minutes players a game.

Challenge is they can't have to many.

Yep. The problem isn't McGrattan, Jackman, Bouma or Galiardi in isolation. It's the fact Hartley is playing all 4 of them in the same game. I think ideally all four of those guys are 4th liners. Which means at least one of our top 3 lines is taking a hit offensively by playing a grinder.

I doubt Hartley is suddenly going to change his mind on playing these guys. So we either wait for an injury or a trade to reduce the LOFT quotient on the bottom couple lines.

[moon]

Originally Posted by flambers

Personally I really like to see the Flames have a player like McGratton on the team. He doesn't take bad penalities can play his role effectively.

Remember 4th liners are 4 to 6 minutes maybe 7 minutes players a game.

Challenge is they can't have to many.

Seems like now most teams are looking at 8-10 minutes for their 4th lines. At least teams with better 4th lines.

And with the Flames not exactly having the most talent and moving guys playing time around based on 'merit' you would think if we had guys like Bouma, B. Jones, Street, Reinhart etc. in there 8-10 minutes of non-liability hockey should be easy to get out of them.

[Bend it like Bourgeois]

I don't think its about toughness. As it stands the flames have barely 4 nhl centres and 6 nhl wingers, when all are healthy.

I think they would love to have better options than mcgrattan and jackman, and will before the season is out. It is only 20 games in. Much like they started Berra in the AHL despite a clear desire to have the guy here, I think you will see more youngsters come up at forward, when they are ready and likely to be usable semi-consistently.