The Athletic: LeBrun: Flames in a tough spot

[Vinny01]

Treliving did say he fully expects more hockey deals which gives me hopes he thinks the Flames can pull one off.

Really didn’t sound like he is in the rental market as he only does that move when he thinks the team is a piece away.

[Burning Beard]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

Treliving did say he fully expects more hockey deals which gives me hopes he thinks the Flames can pull one off.

Really didn’t sound like he is in the rental market as he only does that move when he thinks the team is a piece away.

Yeah I heard that the same way. He is very good at "GM" talk without giving away too much info but it sounded like a hint that he was working on something.

[powderjunkie]

I understand the sentiment of waiting for major move(s) in June, but I don't think it's the best strategy.

Realistically, this team needs 2 big trades.

There were only 3-6 substantial hockey trades involving core players last summer (Trouba, Faulk, Kadri, Kessel*, Subban*, JT Miller*); the rest were cap dumps, nibbling around the edges, or prospect for prospect. *Kessel/Subban/Miller were really cap dumps...no team was able to make two big trades.

No reason to expect this summer will be much different.

Not to de-rail to Johnny talk, but I simply don't agree with the sentiment that he will be easier to trade this summer, for a number of reasons. One not often discussed being expansion...who wants to pay a big price for a guy who will use a protection slot with only 1 yr left to UFA afterwards? I really think his value is at it's peak this week - the extra opportunity with him in the playoffs is massive.

Tough sell to fans and STH, so it's almost certainly not going to happen. For me, it's as simple as imagining his loss is due to injury as much as trade. I go back to something Montour+Cozens (as a base; probably more components on each side, like Janko/Mittlestadt and swapping 2nds or something). It essentially turns our subtraction (aka. injury loss) into 1D and 1F instead of 2D (though I'd still sell Brodie and just hope for the best on Gio's return).

That would set everything up to deal Hanifin (or Vali/Kyli) in June, which is absolutely the right time to trade a player like him.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

I understand the sentiment of waiting for major move(s) in June, but I don't think it's the best strategy.

Realistically, this team needs 2 big trades.

There were only 3-6 substantial hockey trades involving core players last summer (Trouba, Faulk, Kadri, Kessel*, Subban*, JT Miller*); the rest were cap dumps, nibbling around the edges, or prospect for prospect. *Kessel/Subban/Miller were really cap dumps...no team was able to make two big trades.

No reason to expect this summer will be much different.

Not to de-rail to Johnny talk, but I simply don't agree with the sentiment that he will be easier to trade this summer, for a number of reasons. One not often discussed being expansion...who wants to pay a big price for a guy who will use a protection slot with only 1 yr left to UFA afterwards? I really think his value is at it's peak this week - the extra opportunity with him in the playoffs is massive.

.

I think if JG is traded in the offseason it will be to a team who will very quickly extend him to a long term deal.

[Heavy Jack]

Pageau & Namestnikov would be a dream trade; what would it take? Not really keen on trading Bennett now as he starts to heat up.

2nd + 3rd + Jankowski + Czarnik

For

Pageau (2nd + Janks) + Namestnikov (3rd + Czarnik)


Gaudreau - Monahan - Lindholm
Tkachuk - Pageau - Mangiapane
Namestnikov - Backlund - Bennett
Lucic - Ryan - Dube
Rinaldo, Rieder

Very could mix through out our forwards here.

[1991 Canadian]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

To buy out Brouwer and immediately go back to the well with Neal shows of a general lack of patience, trying over and over for the quick fix. It really does look like a Canadian thing as the Canucks pretty well doing the same thing when they aren't ready to be a contender. Canadian owners and fans simply lack the patience for the long game.

The problem I have with this line of thinking is that patience would not fix the RW hole. It’s not like Brouwer/Neal kept some promising young RW in the AHL. They didn’t cost any draft picks.

Who knows, maybe there was some trade where the Flames could have taken on a bad contract in exchange for an asset, then bundled that asset to trade for a good young RW?

Every year in the Treliving era I’ve looked at the RW UFA class and been underwhelmed.

There just haven’t been that many good RW options available to the Flames via the draft, trade and UFA. Yes, hindsight being 20/20, I’d rather have the capspace than Brouwer/Neal/Lucic, but I don’t think it would have mattered as much as people think.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I think if JG is traded in the offseason it will be to a team who will very quickly extend him to a long term deal.

But they can't even do that until July 1, 2021? And that seems to really narrow the possible landing spots...

[D as in David]

If the Flames are neither buyers or sellers this trade deadline, they could take advantage of their cap room by engaging in a three team trade where they take on a portion of salary of a player moving from one team to another. Would be complicated and potentially makes a competitor stronger for the post-season (so likely would involve an Eastern team).

Is this allowed under the CBA and are there any examples of this type of trade in the past?

[Anduril]

Originally Posted by D as in David

If the Flames are neither buyers or sellers this trade deadline, they could take advantage of their cap room by engaging in a three team trade where they take on a portion of salary of a player moving from one team to another. Would be complicated and potentially makes a competitor stronger for the post-season (so likely would involve an Eastern team).

Is this allowed under the CBA and are there any examples of this type of trade in the past?

This is probably an excessively convoluted way of getting in as a middle man, where most teams looking to move a big contract will generally absorb the cost on their own. You'd need to have that team be unwilling to absorb any costs due to finances or cap situation and I don't see any potential sellers in that situation.

Plus the Flames don't have a lot of cap space to take on a meaningful portion to begin so this ends up being a thought exercise without a specific scenario in place.

[868904]

Originally Posted by Heavy Jack

Pageau & Namestnikov would be a dream trade; what would it take? Not really keen on trading Bennett now as he starts to heat up.

2nd + 3rd + Jankowski + Czarnik

For

Pageau (2nd + Janks) + Namestnikov (3rd + Czarnik)


Gaudreau - Monahan - Lindholm
Tkachuk - Pageau - Mangiapane
Namestnikov - Backlund - Bennett
Lucic - Ryan - Dube
Rinaldo, Rieder

Very could mix through out our forwards here.

I really don't see why some of you are so high on Namestnikov. He had one good season in Tampa but otherwise, he is a 35 point player. He's in the perfect situation right now in Ottawa to put up points and he isn't. He is about as bland and as vanilla of a player as you can find. Doesn't put up points, isn't physical, isn't a speed demon. Has no history with any players on this team. He's also a UFA.

He's basically Michal Frolik, and this board rejoiced when he was traded earlier this season.

Posters on here hating on acquiring Simmonds, who has similar production as Namestnikov but is also physical and can fight, which are things that are actually useful in the playoffs.

Namestnikov is a complete waste of assets and time.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

But they can't even do that until July 1, 2021? And that seems to really narrow the possible landing spots...

Technically, yes. Untechnically (wink wink) maybe no.

[TheScorpion]

Namestnikov is fast, kills penalties, plays centre and wing... very similar to Frolik, yes.

But the thing is, Namestnikov is 27. Frolik is 32. Sure people were happy when Frolik was traded... because he's past his prime. But Namestnikov is the same age Frolik was when he was just beginning his five-year pact with the Flames.

And while Frolik wasn't very good this year, he was FANTASTIC at the start of his deal and the Flames have been missing what he brought between 2015-2018 for a little while now. For that reason, I can very much see the appeal of bringing in a guy like Namestnikov who can maybe form a dangerous pairing with Backlund and potentially be re-signed.

[N-E-B]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

I understand the sentiment of waiting for major move(s) in June, but I don't think it's the best strategy.

Realistically, this team needs 2 big trades.

There were only 3-6 substantial hockey trades involving core players last summer (Trouba, Faulk, Kadri, Kessel*, Subban*, JT Miller*); the rest were cap dumps, nibbling around the edges, or prospect for prospect. *Kessel/Subban/Miller were really cap dumps...no team was able to make two big trades.

No reason to expect this summer will be much different.

Not to de-rail to Johnny talk, but I simply don't agree with the sentiment that he will be easier to trade this summer, for a number of reasons. One not often discussed being expansion...who wants to pay a big price for a guy who will use a protection slot with only 1 yr left to UFA afterwards? I really think his value is at it's peak this week - the extra opportunity with him in the playoffs is massive.

Tough sell to fans and STH, so it's almost certainly not going to happen. For me, it's as simple as imagining his loss is due to injury as much as trade. I go back to something Montour+Cozens (as a base; probably more components on each side, like Janko/Mittlestadt and swapping 2nds or something). It essentially turns our subtraction (aka. injury loss) into 1D and 1F instead of 2D (though I'd still sell Brodie and just hope for the best on Gio's return).

That would set everything up to deal Hanifin (or Vali/Kyli) in June, which is absolutely the right time to trade a player like him.

I know he’s struggled this year but I really don’t think expansion is a factor when it comes to Johnny. I think all 31 teams would gladly use a protected slot on him. There’s not a single team in the NHL where Johnny isn’t a top-7 forward. Even if they went the 8 player route I think Johnny is in every team’s top-4 forwards.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

Namestnikov is fast, kills penalties, plays centre and wing... very similar to Frolik, yes.

But the thing is, Namestnikov is 27. Frolik is 32. Sure people were happy when Frolik was traded... because he's past his prime. But Namestnikov is the same age Frolik was when he was just beginning his five-year pact with the Flames.

And while Frolik wasn't very good this year, he was FANTASTIC at the start of his deal and the Flames have been missing what he brought between 2015-2018 for a little while now. For that reason, I can very much see the appeal of bringing in a guy like Namestnikov who can maybe form a dangerous pairing with Backlund and potentially be re-signed.

If you are looking at C/LW who are fast, why not look at Athanasiou instead? Much younger, super fast and has hands. I know he has an all-world +/- but I'm not sure what to make of that on that team.

[TheScorpion]

Athanasiou is very problematic defensively and I'm not just gauging that from his plus/minus. He has a bit more offensive upside in a vacuum but I'm not convinced that he'd be a beneficial presence, particularly when compared to someone like Namestnikov who is more actively proficient in his own end.

[GranteedEV]

Brandon Montour is a name I'd love to add. Not sure why his stock dropped so hard that his name is even on the market.

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by 868904

I really don't see why some of you are so high on Namestnikov. He had one good season in Tampa but otherwise, he is a 35 point player. He's in the perfect situation right now in Ottawa to put up points and he isn't. He is about as bland and as vanilla of a player as you can find. Doesn't put up points, isn't physical, isn't a speed demon. Has no history with any players on this team. He's also a UFA.

He's basically Michal Frolik, and this board rejoiced when he was traded earlier this season.

Posters on here hating on acquiring Simmonds, who has similar production as Namestnikov but is also physical and can fight, which are things that are actually useful in the playoffs.

Namestnikov is a complete waste of assets and time.

“So high on”, by thinking he’d be a solid addition to the teams bottom 6?

And he would be, he’s a fast physical player. He has 94 hits this season (would be 3 on the team between Tkachuk and Bennett). He had 140 last season. He’s younger and quicker than Simmonds and brings the same game. Except fighting (Simmonds has ~2 per season).... which is useless in the playoffs.

[Sylvanfan]

If you really want to know how not to run a Franchise...maybe look at Buffalo.
Whatever they are doing...make damn sure you don't.

Realistically I think the Flames need a slight rebuild. Too many cap bogeys for the next two years, and your best player is still young enough that you will able to win with him 3 years from today on a new contact while still having some other usefull pieces at decent cap numbers.

So you sell what you can, keep your pick, and if your players sulk and suck...hope it improves your draft lottery odds. The players had 60+ games to prove something, and they frankly failed.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Technically, yes. Untechnically (wink wink) maybe no.

Fair, but I don't see why both sides wouldn't want to 'try each other on' for a year before committing (in this theoretical scenario).

Originally Posted by N-E-B

I know he’s struggled this year but I really don’t think expansion is a factor when it comes to Johnny. I think all 31 teams would gladly use a protected slot on him. There’s not a single team in the NHL where Johnny isn’t a top-7 forward. Even if they went the 8 player route I think Johnny is in every team’s top-4 forwards.

I don't disagree, but I think it could play at least a bit into the calculus of how much you're willing to pay to acquire him (it still limits your options a little bit in further forward moves, etc.)j

Then again, any team acquiring him likely isn't terribly happy with their top 7 Fs (which is the reason I don't think we're getting a quality current forward back, ergo fixing this core is at least a 2 step process that needs to start sooner than later).

[dissentowner]

Selling is a bad idea because it sends a terrible message to the players. We are right in the thick of it and you are going to sell off key players for picks? You just told your core players you don't believe in them. If I was a young core player on this team and my GM did that I would want out. If I am a player from another team or a UFA and Calgary comes calling I would not want any part of it after they just showed they don't want to compete. Want to retool the roster? You do it in the offseason. Selling a guy like Brodie who is absolutely essential right now to the team for a draft pick or a prospect is a big F you to this roster, it would have a huge negative effect now and down the road. If BT doesn't want to trade futures for rentals at the deadline that is fine, it makes sense given the prices and our need for youth in the system but you can't hold a fire sale either when you are right in the thick of it or you might as well trade every core piece after the season, Tkachuk included because they are not going to want to be here.