[Trade] Elias Lindholm + Noah Hanifin to Flames for D. Hamilton, Micheal Ferland, & Adam Fox

[Itse]

Originally Posted by devo22

I have to laugh at the "Lindholm is what he is now" stuff. Young centermen can take a while before they really figure things out in the NHL and take their game to the next level ... Sean Couturier and Brayden Schenn are two recent examples. Couturier really only exploded last season, which was his 7th in the league. Schenn also improved step by step and really took off in his 7th year too. Lindholm is every bit as talented as those two, there's no reason why he shouldn't have it in him to kick into the next gear as well. There's no guarantee obviously, but "he is what he is" is weird statement about a talented 23-year-old center.

I don't think it would be a weird statement about Monahan, MacKinnon or Barkov, the other talented 23-year old centers picked before and after him. Lindholm has played 374 NHL games already. It's extremely rare for guys to make significant leaps at that point.

Would you trade Bo Horvat for his upside? Do you still expect Poirier and Klimchuk to make an impact? I wouldn't and I don't. The 2013 drafted forwards for the most part are what they are, in good and in bad.

That's not to say there's zero development left there, but it's very unlikely for these guys to make jumps that end up making a big difference.

[etdpratt]

Originally Posted by RoughRiderRowdy

Lol we fleeced the canes. This trade will pay dividends for a decade

I have been going back and forth on this trade and here are a couple thoughts:

- Our greatest need was finding a #1 RW. Did we accomplish this? It's too early to tell but the concern I have is that we have to hope for a player to develop a decent amount or take a sizable leap to fill that role and not someone who is a proven top line player. We could easily a year from now still be saying we need a top line RW.

That leads me to the next question:

- What could we have got for Dougie straight up if we didn't get a defenseman as part of the return? I wouldn't expect a fleecing job like New Jersey got with Hall for Larsson, but I believe Dougie would fetch a top line RW on his own. Dougie was our strongest trade chip and should have brought back the immediate need of the team.

I am not saying this trade was horrible, I just think there is a decent chance we just gave away our best trade piece without filling our immediate team needs. I hope Lindholm can make a big jump, but I am not sure we can get a top line player with what we have and not include high draft picks at this point.

[etdpratt]

Originally Posted by devo22

I have to laugh at the "Lindholm is what he is now" stuff. Young centermen can take a while before they really figure things out in the NHL and take their game to the next level ... Sean Couturier and Brayden Schenn are two recent examples. Couturier really only exploded last season, which was his 7th in the league. Schenn also improved step by step and really took off in his 7th year too. Lindholm is every bit as talented as those two, there's no reason why he shouldn't have it in him to kick into the next gear as well. There's no guarantee obviously, but "he is what he is" is weird statement about a talented 23-year-old center.

I just don't think you trade your best trade piece for the hope that a player develops. We need to get the top line RW right, and Dougie should have fetched that on his own. There are more examples of players that don't take a leap developmentally than those that do after they've played as many games as lindholm has.

[N-E-B]

I’ve slept on it, and while I’m pretty excited with what we got, I still don’t like the price we paid. I valued Hamilton very much. I loved Ferland as a player and person too. To me, Ferland was of the Mikael Backlund ilk. Dude bled Flames. Drafted here, carved himself a nice career here, western Canadian kid. Felt like we were a perfect fit for him. I’m most upset about losing him.

Fox is whatever. He’s a prospect. He might not even turn into anything.

[Reign of Fire]

I also feel that Treliving is using that whole Ferland is going to be a UFA soon as an excuse to justify the trade. If you can't sign him, flip him at the deadline for a pick. He zeroed in on his players, and paid a premium to get those players. He wasnt leaving the draft without his shiny new toys. I am still wondering how he made it thru the first round without pulling the trigger. He bought potential for no.1 RH d-man, which should have returned a no.1 RW.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by etdpratt

I have been going back and forth on this trade and here are a couple thoughts:

- Our greatest need was finding a #1 RW. Did we accomplish this? It's too early to tell but the concern I have is that we have to hope for a player to develop a decent amount or take a sizable leap to fill that role and not someone who is a proven top line player.

While Lindholm could take a step forward in development, developing into a #1 RW complemeting our first line would be a surprise turn.

Lindholm is a fine player that adds skill and smarts to our lineup, but he's a two-way playmaking center that doesn't have much of a shot.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Hes

Hanifin hasn’t played his draft+3 season yet so this year determines his trajectory vs hamilton. Seems like at draft +2 they were pretty comparable.

That's kind of where the problem lies, no? We're hoping Hanifin can become in the future what Dougie Hamilton is now.

We're hoping Lindholm at least scores as many goals as Ferland did - which would be a third as many more than he's ever scored before.

And we still need a RW.

These two players have great talent. But unless one takes a quantum leap and the other another step forward, then we're really just spinning our wheels from last season to this.

[mrdonkey]

After having slept on it I still don’t like this trade.

We gave up the only trade chip we had that could have landed us a #1 RW, and Lindholm is not that player. A year from now we may be in a position of having no #1 RW, no starting goalie, and no #1D if Gio takes a step back.

That’s a lot of holes to fill.

[ColoradoFlamesFan]

Lots of thought went into this trade.
They shopped Hamilton for a reason, and it could be that they felt they needed a character change. I’m sure they’ve listened to several offers
The big part that i see, is the impact for and from the coach. He had a chance to bring with him two people he thought had the character that the Flames wanted to develop. These players bring with them understanding of the coaches systems, and will be able to relate that to the other players.
This team needs to get out of the gate quick and having a slow learning curve will not be good.

In the end, the deal is done. I’d rather move forward and understand how these guys will be used and fit, than dwell on what should have or could have been.

[Red Slinger]

After thinking about this I think the Flames probably overpaid a little bit.

With the addition of Fox they should have gotten a 3rd or 4th round pick from the Canes as part of the deal. Not a big deal and unlikely to make a difference. The best player in the deal is Hamilton but not by much.

The Flames got the players with the most potential in the deal and they increased their scoring depth and competitiveness overall.

I'm certainly not going to lose my mind because we lost out on a 3rd/4th round draft pick. However, from a pure GM asset management perspective I think we could have done a little better but that potential draft pick is highly unlikely to make a difference on the ice.

So, slight Carolina win today with a higher potential for being a Calgary win in the long run.

[tvp2003]

Well, if the plan was to create interest in the upcoming season — mission accomplished. Regardless of the cost, we have two young players with a clean slate and a new coach they are both familiar with.

Re Ferland becoming a UFA next year: I see two possible scenarios:

1) he continues to improve his consistency and puts up another 20-25 goal season.
2) he struggles in Carolina with lesser teammates and only scores 10.

What are the odds we sign him back as a UFA next July? Scenario 1 seems less likely as either Carolina would re-sign him or someone else overpays on July 1. Scenario 2 seems much more intriguing as I could see him wanting to come back to where he’s had success in the past (hometown discount might be asking too much but Treliving is certainly saying all the right things, and probably means them too).

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Reign of Fire

I also feel that Treliving is using that whole Ferland is going to be a UFA soon as an excuse to justify the trade. If you can't sign him, flip him at the deadline for a pick. He zeroed in on his players, and paid a premium to get those players. He wasnt leaving the draft without his shiny new toys. I am still wondering how he made it thru the first round without pulling the trigger. He bought potential for no.1 RH d-man, which should have returned a no.1 RW.

I’d rather have the players they got than a pick

[btimbit]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

I’d rather have the players they got than a pick

Same here.

There's a good chance that in a year all the Canes have to show for this deal is Hamilton

[mrdonkey]

Originally Posted by tvp2003

Well, if the plan was to create interest in the upcoming season — mission accomplished. Regardless of the cost, we have two young players with a clean slate and a new coach they are both familiar with.

Re Ferland becoming a UFA next year: I see two possible scenarios:

1) he continues to improve his consistency and puts up another 20-25 goal season.
2) he struggles in Carolina with lesser teammates and only scores 10.

What are the odds we sign him back as a UFA next July? Scenario 1 seems less likely as either Carolina would re-sign him or someone else overpays on July 1. Scenario 2 seems much more intriguing as I could see him wanting to come back to where he’s had success in the past (hometown discount might be asking too much but Treliving is certainly saying all the right things, and probably means them too).

I’m almost certain Ferland goes to UFA and some team gets suckered into a Matt Beleskey/Troy Brouwer contract.

A good barometer this offseason will be whatever Patrick Maroon gets.

[rhino]

I also don’t think Ferland gets top line minutes in Carolina so I think his value may decrease before he goes UFA.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by savemedrzaius

Basically they feel there was no need for the Flames to add Fox as Hanfin/Lindholm for Hamilton/Ferland should have been enough.

When it comes to Fox, what people aren't taking into account is not only was he unlikely to sign with the Flames, he's unlikely to sign with whoever we traded him to. It sounds like Fox is going to play his four years at Harvard and then choose where to play. That decreases his trade value dramatically.

[Reign of Fire]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

I’d rather have the players they got than a pick

The point I am trying to make is he didnt get value. You would also say this no matter what he does. He gave up a rare commodity in the NHL and still added to that to get it done.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Jimdon

I don't understand the argument that Hamilton is terrible defensively and Gio propped him up. The stats and numbers don't back it up at all.

Which just shows you can't rely strictly on stats to assess a player. Hamilton was often as sea without the puck, made Giordano do a lot of the heavy lifting, and was okay with losing. He wasn't willing to do what it takes to become an all-around defenceman.

The fact Hamilton was passed over when the World Cup North America team was put together should have been a huge red flag about Hamilton's all-around game and intangibles. In elite competitions you need to bring more to the table than skating and the ability to get the puck on net. You need to be reliable in your own end, and able to ratchet up your intensity to another level. Hamilton hasn't demonstrated he can do either of those things.

[Lanny_McDonald]

All the arguing back and forth about whether the Flames got the better players really is irrelevant. I like the players that we got back, but they really don’t change the make up of the hockey team or address weakness. The problem that faced the team was a need to get another top six forward that was a proven scorer. Mission NOT accomplished. This was a lateral move in the big picture and did not address the pressing need of the hockey team.

Treliving continues to be very slow at addressing the significant holes in the organization. He loves the big glitzy trades, but he doesn’t address the major needs of the hockey team. We are still without a top RW, a proven scorer, and a long term solution between the pipes. All of these are the problems that faced this team from day one for Treliving, but he has yet to find a way to address the needs. Pretty sad considering the number of high draft picks and assets he’s burned through.

[Wolfman]

Originally Posted by rhino

I also don’t think Ferland gets top line minutes in Carolina so I think his value may decrease before he goes UFA.

That's a good point that hasn't been brought up yet. I see Ferland on the are line in Carolina and seeing the lineages be had here.