Which is (as I said) a pretty generic, hypothetical claim. You’re telling me it’s definitively wrong, so… prove it. If your position is that “maybe it’s not equal” then sure, maybe it’s not. But then, maybe it is…
I have the advantage of knowing that there are millions of species on Earth and that we’re both the most intelligent by far and the only ones with advanced technology or any technology beyond banging rocks on stuff.
Your position doesn’t have any such luxury. So you’re going to have to work a little harder.
What are you talking about? You're the one who mentioned "the math" and said it was easy. Quote:
"not unlike looking at the math and making the assumption there are thousands of other intelligent life forms in the universe and applying the bell curve to determine we are possibly in the middle (at best). Do the math. It's not hard. Well, it's a little harder than Euclid's common notions, and you screwed those up, so maybe it is harder than it looks."
Part of education is doing (application). You never do anything or have done anything. You're wonderful at data collection (theory) but fail hard at pulling it all together (synthesis). Doing the work yourself is part of the educational process, which is why YOU have to do the work. Someone else doing the work for you all the time doesn't teach you anything. It just gives you another data point you fail to synthesize into your understanding of the topic. You're great at googling the work others, but terrible at synthesizing the materials into a perspective and applying that body of knowledge into some tangible work. That's how it's very easy to figure out your education level (without looking at your smarmy negative passive aggressive jabs at people with advanced degrees).
Quote:
Instead of making personal jabs and guessing at my education level, wouldn't it be easier to educate me with this seemingly simple math you have on hand? Replacing intellect with insults to take the conversation away from your "math" isn't that interesting to me, you can call me whatever you want, so long as you educate me with your simple math. Please and thanks.
Personal jabs? Yeah, not doing that. I could play your passive aggressive game and make subtle comparisons to an incel living in his parents' basement, but that ain't my game. If I think you're an ####### I'll just call you an #######. I don't waste my time beating around that bush, which you already know, and what you prefer to engage in. I don't need to guess your educational level. It's written all over your posts. When you're read thousands and thousands of papers from students at every level you can quickly see the markers of where they are in their education. I can tell you who reads and writes at what level, and I can tell you what level of education a person ahs on their analytical/cognitive functions. Your lack of interest in things is telling as is your fear of actually doing.
Quote:
As far as an "educated" guess goes, would David Deutsch be educated enough for you? He'd guess the same, which is how I got onto the idea. Are you telling me I shouldn't trust his education or insights into anything?
Great. Another google search result. You're great at pointing out what OTHERS think on the subject and their work on the subject. Yes, Deutsch is quite educated and has shown his ability to theorize, synthesize, and apply. But YOU don't have those capabilities. Google-foo is not the same as being educated because google-foo lacks those synthesis and application components. Google-foo is just confirming your bias rather than allowing a synthesis of various theories and data streams to inform your perspective. That is you and your perspective in a nutshell. Limited critical thought, because critical thought requires exposure to information that challenges what you think you know rather feeding yourself a bunch of information you think is true.
Wow did this thread get derailed, personal attacks about education and the use of google
This thread isn't about the probability of other intelligent life on other planets(which should be extremely high to likely) it's about them visiting earth(which should be extremely low to impossible)
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Originally Posted by Snuffleupagus
Wow did this thread get derailed, personal attacks about education and the use of google
This thread isn't about the probability of other intelligent life on other planets(which should be extremely high to likely) it's about them visiting earth(which should be extremely low to impossible)
It seems to me that both sides are taking jabs at each other on what they post and their style of posting. The trick is to ignore all that stuff and focus on the actual material in their posts. Both give me pause for thought with their thoughts on the matter.
Part of education is doing (application). You never do anything or have done anything. You're wonderful at data collection (theory) but fail hard at pulling it all together (synthesis). Doing the work yourself is part of the educational process, which is why YOU have to do the work. Someone else doing the work for you all the time doesn't teach you anything. It just gives you another data point you fail to synthesize into your understanding of the topic. You're great at googling the work others, but terrible at synthesizing the materials into a perspective and applying that body of knowledge into some tangible work. That's how it's very easy to figure out your education level (without looking at your smarmy negative passive aggressive jabs at people with advanced degrees).
Personal jabs? Yeah, not doing that. I could play your passive aggressive game and make subtle comparisons to an incel living in his parents' basement, but that ain't my game. If I think you're an ####### I'll just call you an #######. I don't waste my time beating around that bush, which you already know, and what you prefer to engage in. I don't need to guess your educational level. It's written all over your posts. When you're read thousands and thousands of papers from students at every level you can quickly see the markers of where they are in their education. I can tell you who reads and writes at what level, and I can tell you what level of education a person ahs on their analytical/cognitive functions. Your lack of interest in things is telling as is your fear of actually doing.
Great. Another google search result. You're great at pointing out what OTHERS think on the subject and their work on the subject. Yes, Deutsch is quite educated and has shown his ability to theorize, synthesize, and apply. But YOU don't have those capabilities. Google-foo is not the same as being educated because google-foo lacks those synthesis and application components. Google-foo is just confirming your bias rather than allowing a synthesis of various theories and data streams to inform your perspective. That is you and your perspective in a nutshell. Limited critical thought, because critical thought requires exposure to information that challenges what you think you know rather feeding yourself a bunch of information you think is true.
Guessing that’s a “no” to doing the math then?
Maybe the math was harder than you thought or something, but you do mention the value of “doing” (application) so I suppose I’m a little confused why you’re avoiding it and just sticking with the personal comments.
If the math showing that the existence of aliens with far greater advanced technology than us is more likely than us having the greatest technology is easy, I would think any educator worth his salt would be dying to illuminate others. You’re saying something we cannot even prove the existence of as we lack any evidence at all is more likely to be better and far more advanced than something we know for a fact exists and we have ample evidence of… that’s amazing! Please share the math! Seriously!
Which is (as I said) a pretty generic, hypothetical claim. You’re telling me it’s definitively wrong, so… prove it. If your position is that “maybe it’s not equal” then sure, maybe it’s not. But then, maybe it is…
I have the advantage of knowing that there are millions of species on Earth and that we’re both the most intelligent by far and the only ones with advanced technology or any technology beyond banging rocks on stuff.
Your position doesn’t have any such luxury. So you’re going to have to work a little harder.
Back your claim up or retract. You are the one taking a position.
Your statement that it’s equally likely we are the most advanced species in the universe is not backed by evidence.
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Wow did this thread get derailed, personal attacks about education and the use of google
This thread isn't about the probability of other intelligent life on other planets(which should be extremely high to likely) it's about them visiting earth(which should be extremely low to impossible)
Exactly. I would find it incredibly unlikely for us to be it… for not even some base level intelligence to exist anywhere else in space.
But better tech? And the math proves it’s likely? God damn that’s interesting math. I just want to see it.
I’ve yet to see a mathematical equation that accounts not just for life in general, but raw materials, motivations, evolution, societal progress, etc., all the variables required that make it all not just possible, but probable.
The insults don’t bother me considering the source. I want to learn!
Back your claim up or retract. You are the one taking a position.
Your statement that it’s equally likely we are the most advanced species in the universe is not backed by evidence.
Technically you’re right, “equally likely” is not backed by evidence
Considering, of course, the fact that the discovered species on Earth are the only species in the universe whose existence is backed by evidence and we’re the most advanced on Earth, there is no “likely,” we ARE the most advanced (based on what can be backed by evidence). I thought I was being generous by calling it “equally likely” since we’re talking about aliens and dealing mostly in hypotheticals, theories, and probabilities. My bad.
If we’re suddenly concerned only with what can be backed by evidence, I’m curious about the evidence you have of more advanced species in the universe. Care to share?
Back your claim up or retract. You are the one taking a position.
Your statement that it’s equally likely we are the most advanced species in the universe is not backed by evidence.
I’m really not well-versed, or versed at all in this subject, nor do I think about it often. It’s a fun subject for me to ponder.
But how is that statement not backed by evidence? We’ve found 0 other civilizations or other life. Therefore, to me at least, we are the most advanced civilization. Unless the statement is more meant as “potentially, we are the most advanced civilization”. Then I can agree, there’s potential for more advanced civilizations than human beings.
Please provide me some reading, as I don’t even know where to look, and this thread is so long and contains so much dialogue, I’m not sure where to even start.
Last edited by TherapyforGlencross; 08-06-2022 at 03:41 PM.
I’m really not well-versed, or versed at all in this subject, nor do I think about it often. It’s a fun subject for me to ponder.
But how is that statement not backed by evidence? We’ve found 0 other civilizations or other life. Therefore, to me at least, we are the most advanced civilization. Unless the statement is more meant as “potentially, we are the most advanced civilization”.
Please provide me some reading, as I don’t even know where to look, and this thread is so long and contains so much dialogue, I’m not sure where to even start.
Technically you’re right, “equally likely” is not backed by evidence
Considering, of course, the fact that the discovered species on Earth are the only species in the universe whose existence is backed by evidence and we’re the most advanced on Earth, there is no “likely,” we ARE the most advanced (based on what can be backed by evidence). I thought I was being generous by calling it “equally likely” since we’re talking about aliens and dealing mostly in hypotheticals, theories, and probabilities. My bad.
If we’re suddenly concerned only with what can be backed by evidence, I’m curious about the evidence you have of more advanced species in the universe. Care to share?
I happy that you agreed to retract your ridiculous statement.
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Part of education is doing (application). You never do anything or have done anything. You're wonderful at data collection (theory) but fail hard at pulling it all together (synthesis). Doing the work yourself is part of the educational process, which is why YOU have to do the work. Someone else doing the work for you all the time doesn't teach you anything. It just gives you another data point you fail to synthesize into your understanding of the topic. You're great at googling the work others, but terrible at synthesizing the materials into a perspective and applying that body of knowledge into some tangible work. That's how it's very easy to figure out your education level (without looking at your smarmy negative passive aggressive jabs at people with advanced degrees).
Personal jabs? Yeah, not doing that. I could play your passive aggressive game and make subtle comparisons to an incel living in his parents' basement, but that ain't my game. If I think you're an ####### I'll just call you an #######. I don't waste my time beating around that bush, which you already know, and what you prefer to engage in. I don't need to guess your educational level. It's written all over your posts. When you're read thousands and thousands of papers from students at every level you can quickly see the markers of where they are in their education. I can tell you who reads and writes at what level, and I can tell you what level of education a person ahs on their analytical/cognitive functions. Your lack of interest in things is telling as is your fear of actually doing.
Great. Another google search result. You're great at pointing out what OTHERS think on the subject and their work on the subject. Yes, Deutsch is quite educated and has shown his ability to theorize, synthesize, and apply. But YOU don't have those capabilities. Google-foo is not the same as being educated because google-foo lacks those synthesis and application components. Google-foo is just confirming your bias rather than allowing a synthesis of various theories and data streams to inform your perspective. That is you and your perspective in a nutshell. Limited critical thought, because critical thought requires exposure to information that challenges what you think you know rather feeding yourself a bunch of information you think is true.
This is quite rude and condescending, don’t you think? What part of this post contributes anything to the discussion of intelligent life? Great, I now know that you think another individual lacks the education or intelligence to contribute to such a topic. Do you talk like this in real-life?? Posts like these make me want to stray away from this discussion.. I don’t post much, so maybe there’s a reason for this kind of post, off-putting to people who may be interested in such a topic..
Last edited by TherapyforGlencross; 08-06-2022 at 04:13 PM.
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I happy that you agreed to retract your ridiculous statement.
I don’t retract it, I don’t really care that it isn’t backed by evidence since I was sure that was fair game. If you’re telling me it’s not, please provide evidence of advanced alien intelligence and tech. If it is fair game, then what point are you making saying it isn’t backed by evidence? Why would it matter?
Why are you and Lanny both more interested making this weirdly personal?
Wow did this thread get derailed, personal attacks about education and the use of google
This thread isn't about the probability of other intelligent life on other planets(which should be extremely high to likely) it's about them visiting earth(which should be extremely low to impossible)
Yep! They can't get here and with a high degree of probability don't even know we exist
I don’t retract it, I don’t really care that it isn’t backed by evidence since I was sure that was fair game. If you’re telling me it’s not, please provide evidence of advanced alien intelligence and tech. If it is fair game, then what point are you making saying it isn’t backed by evidence? Why would it matter?
Why are you and Lanny both more interested making this weirdly personal?
I’m not sure how I made this personal. Your just wrong and keep doubling down.
As I said in my first or second post if you say there is only evidence for humans and I believe in the rare earth hypothesis then your statement is fine. I disagree with you but it’s certainly a fun discussion.
But if you don’t believe in rare earth then it’s not equally likely because in conditions of the universe where there is more than 1 intelligent species there will me many more that 1 based on the number of stars in the universe.
So you are just logically wrong. The equally likely case doesn’t exist.
I’m not sure why you can’t just be less specific and just say it’s possible.
Anyone else find this discussion absolutely bizarre?
Like the most passive aggressive, or at times straight up aggressive discussion ever while still both holding their own but kind of dancing around the topic.
I don’t think Pepsifree understands how well he can agitate but on the flip side Lanny needs to chill out a bit as well. So people don’t agree with you, oh well? Personally I have loved Lannys insight and I enjoy reading Pepsifree’s challenges but wish both sides would just relax and act respectfully.
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Anyone else find this discussion absolutely bizarre?
Like the most passive aggressive, or at times straight up aggressive discussion ever while still both holding their own but kind of dancing around the topic.
I don’t think Pepsifree understands how well he can agitate but on the flip side Lanny needs to chill out a bit as well. So people don’t agree with you, oh well? Personally I have loved Lannys insight and I enjoy reading Pepsifree’s challenges but wish both sides would just relax and act respectfully.
I don't think that's ever going to happen. The anomosity between the 2 of them seems to grow with each discussion had.
