[News] UPD: Coyotes renounce the rights to draft pick Mitchell Miller

[Mattman]

As someone who also had to deal with bullying constantly through sports and through highschool, I am sickened to hear this.

I think alot of the people here have touched on the importance of reconciliation, and how much it means to have the offender apologize in person.

One thing I will agree with is that this is totally up to Mitchell now. Own up to your actions, apologize, and become a voice for incidents like this and for people who are affected by it. People can change, and if he ever wants to make a pro career he will have to show he has changed through his words and actions. Not rooting for him or against him, just to be a better person.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

What career should he be allowed to pursue?

I don't know how we can so confidently assert what his focus has been for the last four years. It does seem like he has continued to play hockey but what exactly do we know besides that? It does seem clear he has not given an in person apology to the victim which is disappointing. I guess for some people that is the tipping point in the whole thing.

The career he pursues is up to him. But he may find that he is limited by companies that want to hire him given what is known about him.
Which is a consequence of his action.
Again, I'm not saying the NHL should ban him from their league. My view is that should have been left to teams to do the right thing and not draft him.
And that's where the Coyotes screwed up. They did the math and decided his abilities were high enough that they were willing to compromise their morals.

When people do things there are consequence. And there are second chances. Both. He can have a second chance, but the consequence of his actions may be that his career choices may have some limitations.

[CalgaryFan1988]

Downie made the NHL, although he didn't last. Of course, times have changed since then.

[Oling_Roachinen]

And people had no problem calling Downie scum and rooting against him.

[getbak]

Originally Posted by wired

My guess is he does not play a single game in the Arizona system. Drafted, but unsigned.

As a 4th rounder, that's the most-likely outcome anyway, but with this hanging over his head, it makes it even less-likely he goes anywhere.

Also, the fact that their GM wasn't allowed to participate in the draft and their 2 Associate Directors of Amateur Scouting were hired less than a week before the draft gives them a pretty easy out if they decide to walk away from this pick in the future.

They can clear house on the scouting staff (which was likely anyway with a new GM and new Directors of Amateur Scouting) and blame the previous scouts for failing to do their due diligence. By the time next year's rookie camp comes along, they'll have a whole new crop of draft picks to talk about.

[cannon7]

Originally Posted by The Yen Man

You do understand there's levels of severity right? Yah, I'm sure we've all done stupid things as a teenager in the past, but I can guarantee 99% of us have never verbally and physically assaulted someone for 7 years. The "stupid things" this kid did is way way beyond normal teenager behavior. I'm honesty quite offended you'd lump them in the same category.

I know men who at the same age did much worse. And they were sent to youth detention centers. And their accounts of these youth detention centers is that they were as bad as prisons, if not worse.

Most of them now hold steady jobs and have clean criminal records as adults. They're not psychopaths. They don't need to be beaten and taught a lesson. They've already been punished for what they did. As has this young man.

Be reminded that what this young man did was between the ages of 7 and 14. There were adults. They didn't step in. Direct your outrage, if you must, in the right direction.

[cannon7]

Originally Posted by The Yen Man

Maybe I'm missing something here, but what comments in this thread were disturbing? That we hope the kid shows that he is truly remorseful before he gets any sniff of a chance at the NHL? I don't recall anyone wishing this kid ill health or other harm to him.

I guess the worst one I could see was someone calling the kid a psycho when he was bullying the other kid?

There are posters advocating for violence against this young man.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

The career he pursues is up to him. But he may find that he is limited by companies that want to hire him given what is known about him.
Which is a consequence of his action.
Again, I'm not saying the NHL should ban him from their league. My view is that should have been left to teams to do the right thing and not draft him.
And that's where the Coyotes screwed up. They did the math and decided his abilities were high enough that they were willing to compromise their morals.

When people do things there are consequence. And there are second chances. Both. He can have a second chance, but the consequence of his actions may be that his career choices may have some limitations.

I agree with you that he should not be banned. Which means that there may be some employer willing to give him a chance. He found one. Maybe there were more, and since you only get drafted once we don't know. Doesn't sound like he actually fell that far.

Personally I think his ability to get a job in his chosen profession is kind of barking up the wrong tree. If his punishment wasn't severe enough, IMO that's a problem with the justice system. Why should becoming a hockey player be a higher bar than an engineer, chef or pharmacist?


Did the Coyotes compromise their morals by drafting him? Maybe. Should they have talked to the victim's mother before drafting him? Does any employer who hires someone convicted of a certain crime compromise their morals? I truly don't know about the answer to that as I just don't see it as cut and dried as some do. I'm struggling with how anyone can be so certain of what he has done with himself since this behavior.

[cannon7]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

One thing I disagree is the removal of him from hockey. The 'bad apples' in my school who played hockey only got much worse as they petered out of it (due to lack of skill). Most of the weapons and drugs coming into my school were former/current jocks at the time (in association with the FK/FOB). Maybe my school was unique at the time.

Removing an already bad apple from perhaps the one thing that grounded him and motivated him, especially if he was a poor student, removing him from the one thing that might keep him on track, ending his potential career, seems like probably the worst parenting move. Especially as many on this board will be the first to talk about how great organized sports is for developing children.

Also I like the whole "We are not excusing his behaviour! But also it was his parents fault" who here knows if he had a bad homelife at all, some people (especially children) are just little####s. White privilege is giving him the benefit of the doubt and assuming it wasn't his fault.

Everyone deserves the benefit of the doubt. Regardless of race. Especially if they're a child.

But agree that we don't need a culture of endless punishment. In a world of mandatory minimum sentencing and three strike rules we've left little room for rehabilitation. This thread just further proves to me that the popular opinion is consistent with these draconian policies.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by cannon7

There are posters advocating for violence against this young man.

Who is....?

Also you keep bringing up juvenile detention. It doesn't matter to me because I don't care about the punishment, I care about whether or not he has been rehabilitated, which unlike you I don't see the clear evidence of that. But he never had juvenile detention by all reports, just 25 hours of community service.

[cannon7]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

Who is....?

I'm not going to read the thread for you.

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

Also you keep bringing up juvenile detention. It doesn't matter to me because I don't care about the punishment, I care about whether or not he has been rehabilitated, which unlike you I don't see the clear evidence of that. But he never had juvenile detention by all reports, just 25 hours of community service.

Point to me where he reoffended and I'll agree with you.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by cannon7

I'm not going to read the thread for you.

Well I did, and I didn't see what you're saying.

Originally Posted by cannon7

Point to me where he reoffended and I'll agree with you.

That's where we disagree. Second chance is not about simply not reoffending, it's about making amends as well and showing that he wants to earn a second chance. If he can't be bothered to reach out to his victim for a face-to-face apology, when he knows hit other bully did, then in my opinion he has actively made that choice for 4 years.

He obviously doesn't care that his victim thinks he an ass, so why not let the rest of us think he's an ass as well?

[Fighting Banana Slug]

Originally Posted by cannon7

There are posters advocating for violence against this young man.

By my count, 2 "wishing him the worst", which, unless they have supernatural powers, means nothing, and 1, "piss beaten out of him in an NHL hockey game". So that makes 1 poster. Sort of. Out of 173 posts and counting.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

You're better than this, too. The "mob mentality" or "eye for an eye" stuff is just nonsense. You've blown the issue up into some moral dilemma in your defence of Miller, and for what?

I went back and read every post. There were 3 (out of how many) that suggested anything close to how you've tried to paint the people you're arguing with, and one of those posts was walked back.

Whether it's wanting to see him meet up with Kane or Reaves on the ice, hoping he doesn't make the NHL, wishing the Coyotes hadn't drafted him, or wanting to see an apology to the victim, what exactly is wrong with any of the four? A guy does what he does, and the worst thing the majority are hoping for is... he doesn't make the show? And the worst thing people wished for (that didn't happen) was not getting drafted or a genuine apology? Really? That's what you're spending all this time fighting against?

This is rage to you, huh? This is the mob? Looking for an apology or otherwise hoping a 4th rounder doesn't make the NHL is the mob trying to take their blood? My god dude, what an embarrassingly high bar you've set for the conduct of people. The nerve of some people hoping someone with his history doesn't get the gift of 800k in his bank account for a few years. You're right man, we're the monsters here.

The main point of this is that this is not typical, this is not to be lumped in with everything else one might be ashamed about at 14. This is seven years of really really awful behaviour, and it should be viewed uniquely as such. The main disagreement is over that, over excusing this as among the type of behaviour we were all guilty of, because it's not. Nobody is asking to see his head smashed against a brick wall, nobody is asking that he go to jail forever, nobody is asking that he be forced to eat every urinal puck in every stadium he goes to. People are siding with the victim and asking for an apology, and putting the burden of proof on Miller.

Oh no, the mob wants Miller to apologize to the victim. The horror. The. Horror. Thankfully you're here to fight against it.

Yet again you're using a strawman. I didn't say anything that you're implying and you're once again refusing to speak to any of the points I actually raised.

Instead you're continually using the low hanging fruit and shock value.

This really is some of the worst posting I've seen from you. Running from the issue, mischaracterizing my posts, intentionally misquoting me and misrepresenting the facts.

You're basically following the playbook of internet debate and playing for thanks. It's too bad. I always figured you thought of yourself above that.

[Captain Otto]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

lol. I expected someone to go there.

So I'm the bad guy because a thread about the offender, where nearly every single post is about the offender and I bring that up and now I'm a hypocrite.



You can do better Pepsi. Didn't take you for the mob mentality type.

I also like how I'm getting quoted but only selectively. No one actually wants to talk about mental health, they just want to continue with the rage. Why am I not surprised?

No. He really can't.

[pylon]

There are lot of comments in this thread about cutting the kid a break... he was only a kid, he had bad influences, bad parenting.... etc.

Although some or all of those factors may be true, almost every single guy I knew as a kid, that was classified as a bully, has remained a bully at worst, or a total jerk that still can't let go of the past into their mid 40's.

3-4 years ago I dropped my motorcycle for some work at an independent shop, and at the counter was one of these guys that treated me like garbage.

"Hey Tim, long time, what is it now 25 years?"

He looks confused, then looks at the work order and recognized my name.

"Oh, hey man, yeah been a while."

Anyway, he writes me up, and I go outside waiting for my ride. I realized I left my gloves on the counter and went back in. They have one of those half open walls to their shop, and I can hear him loudly talking to someone in the back

"Yeah this totally queer Fa***t from my High School just walked in here with his Gay ass Ducati...!" I stood there until he came out, and I just asked for my keys back, and he just smirks and tosses them at me, and I leave. No apology, no remorse, nothing. I suppose it's kinda late for that at that point.

I could have called the owner of the shop and created a fuss, but it wasn't even worth my time. And he likely knows what he has with this guy anyway, and wouldn't do anything. It just wasn't worth the grief.

I see some of these guys that are in my circle of influence on Facebook through other friends, and see some of their posts through the comments my friends make. Most of them are still talking about High School, Babes, how rad Trump is grabbing em by the.... etc. These are guys in their mid-late 40's.

I've learned, if you are a total bully jerk-wad at 14, the odds are against you, and you will likely be one at 18-24-45.... etc. I'm sure a handful of these guys turn it around, but from what I've seen, the majority simply don't.

[Iggy_12]

could have been answered already but where was this kid projected to be drafted had these issues not been a thing?

[sureLoss]

Originally Posted by Iggy_12

could have been answered already but where was this kid projected to be drafted had these issues not been a thing?

I have seen some suggest he could have gone as high as the 2nd round.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

Yet again you're using a strawman. I didn't say anything that you're implying and you're once again refusing to speak to any of the points I actually raised.

Instead you're continually using the low hanging fruit and shock value.

This really is some of the worst posting I've seen from you. Running from the issue, mischaracterizing my posts, intentionally misquoting me and misrepresenting the facts.

You're basically following the playbook of internet debate and playing for thanks. It's too bad. I always figured you thought of yourself above that.

Honestly man, I'm not doing any of those things and certainly not on purpose.

I don't understand your position, and from what I do understand of the point you're trying to make, I don't think it's valid. Apologies if it's getting into a personal realm because I do think highly of your opinion, even of my own posts, so I'll take it into account and lay off if that's what you're taking from it, I just think you're misguided here and we disagree. Maybe we're just talking past each other.

Originally Posted by Captain Otto

No. He really can't.

Please contribute more than being a pylon. At least posters like Cecil and canon add value to the forum and I enjoy the discussing things with them even when we disagree, you're just here. Yes, I know "so easy," or "like clockwork." I get it, you think fishing for a reaction from me is an accomplishment. 99% of posters here will tell you it isn't, so grow up already and bring something to the table.

[Boreal]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

And people had no problem calling Downie scum and rooting against him.

Wrong reply