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Old 06-18-2020, 12:44 PM   #21
PepsiFree
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Originally Posted by OutOfTheCube View Post
I mean, which is the more likely scenario:

TLOU2 is a really fantastic game that is almost universally praised, that a couple people seem to not like as much (similar to the first).

Or:

Naughty Dog, one of the most talented and respected devs in the world, spent five years making an absolute dud that Sony is trying to cover up by buying out reviewers.

You seem to be blowing a couple less glowing reviews out of proportion while ignoring the good ones because they sound too good.
I don't think that's what they're getting at, and I don't think there's any value in dismissing negative reviews just because most are positive. This Forbes article, which highlights some of the negative reviews the game has had, explains it in this way:

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This post was not intended to turn people away from playing this game—those people who want to play it and are excited about it will play it regardless, after all, and the balance of positive-to-negative reviews is clearly tilted heavily toward the game being a masterpiece. The reason I focused on the more critical reviews is because I think they’re more helpful in a lot of ways. There’s only so much we can glean from a bunch of 10/10 reviews praising the game as one of the best ever made.

Sure, that’s nice to read when you’re a fan and you’re hyped to play something new, but it’s not helpful to people who want to read criticism. Put another way, sometimes it’s smart to read the minority opinion simply because you’ll get something you won’t find elsewhere. In some cases, the minority opinion is the lone voice that likes something everybody else is panning...

In this instance, the majority of critics are raving about The Last Of Us II, and that’s definitely great news for fans and for Naughty Dog and I’m sure they’ll sell millions of copies. I don’t think pointing to why a handful of critics were disturbed by the game, or found its message lacking or its story full of holes or its characters too changed from the original, will somehow outweigh the dozens of critics who are giving this game perfect scores.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkai.../#50fd5cde30a4

I find myself on the side of "cautiously optimistic." Even the positive reviews have mentioned things that just don't seem very enjoyable. And while everything is expanded, nothing seems to really be made better. And some things, like the character development and the power and nuance of the message in the first one, have been largely lost.

I loved the first one. But I'm not going to write off negative reviews because they don't agree with what I want to believe about this one. In fact, I haven't really read any reviews (I read this article solely because this discussion encouraged me to go looking for something). But before today, even after hearing the countless 10/10s, my excitement for the game was pretty tepid.

It's a sequel where the things that made the first game work were unique, powerful and something we'd barely seen before. And that included the ending, which (with a sequel) no longer means much. I hope I love it, but I don't see any point in getting dismissive of someone who isn't sure they will too.
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Old 06-18-2020, 01:05 PM   #22
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I don't think that's what they're getting at, and I don't think there's any value in dismissing negative reviews just because most are positive. This Forbes article, which highlights some of the negative reviews the game has had, explains it in this way:



https://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkai.../#50fd5cde30a4

I find myself on the side of "cautiously optimistic." Even the positive reviews have mentioned things that just don't seem very enjoyable. And while everything is expanded, nothing seems to really be made better. And some things, like the character development and the power and nuance of the message in the first one, have been largely lost.

I loved the first one. But I'm not going to write off negative reviews because they don't agree with what I want to believe about this one. In fact, I haven't really read any reviews (I read this article solely because this discussion encouraged me to go looking for something). But before today, even after hearing the countless 10/10s, my excitement for the game was pretty tepid.

It's a sequel where the things that made the first game work were unique, powerful and something we'd barely seen before. And that included the ending, which (with a sequel) no longer means much. I hope I love it, but I don't see any point in getting dismissive of someone who isn't sure they will too.
Personally, I'm just the type of person who likes getting a balanced understanding of things and I generally believe completely positive or completely negative aren't good representations of things. I didn't completely discount the totally positive results. I just felt like they obviously needed to be discounted, so I was looking at the alternate opinions to round out my understanding. Purely on the evaluation of like several dozen reviews, I was still cautiously optimistic and excited for the game. But stupid things kept popping up to erode the defense of my decision to stick with the pre-order until I canceled yesterday.

It's not really the game itself that's bugging me, but all the sideshow stuff that's really eating away at me and making me believe I won't be able to fully enjoy the game due to non-game related distractions surrounding this game. This is why I think I need to take a step back and disconnect it with all the side politics and let the criticisms/hype cool down so I can give the game a fair shake on its own, rather than immediately place it in TLOU1's shadow. It really doesn't help when even great reviews say that there were many aspects that were not enjoyable and some of those great reviews even going as far to say it's kinda like pain porn.

Although, I am also starting to wonder why I am suddenly letting so much non-game related stuff bother me so much and I've never experienced a game with this much side show stuff that bothered me so much that I would hesitate. What I've seen so far in the trailers still has many facets that look exciting and I really still want to play TLOU2 ASAP and literally spend zero time looking at anything TLOU2 related outside of my own playthrough, for at least 2 weeks after launch.

It is very possible that I will hop back on the pre-order train within the next 24 hours. I am realizing I am still excited to play the game in a vacuum, but I really am not liking the overall real world atmosphere surrounding this game at all.
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Old 06-18-2020, 01:28 PM   #23
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The obvious solution to all of this is to just wait 12 hours and play the thing and see if it's any good. I haven't watched a single trailer or read a single review or looked at any art at all, personally, but it's so close to release at this point that arguing about whether to have high expectations or not seems kind of pointless.
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Old 06-18-2020, 02:00 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague View Post
The obvious solution to all of this is to just wait 12 hours and play the thing and see if it's any good. I haven't watched a single trailer or read a single review or looked at any art at all, personally, but it's so close to release at this point that arguing about whether to have high expectations or not seems kind of pointless.
I'm the same way, and have the entire day off tomorrow to play this.

Can't wait, I'm super excited!
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Old 06-18-2020, 02:08 PM   #25
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I think this clip helps shed some light on how IGN scores games.



People perceive a 10/10 game as flawless, while the IGN definition is "masterpiece", which just means it's one of the best they've played. It doesn't actually mean it's flawless.

I do agree that IGN did throw out too many 10/10 scores in the past, but I feel like they've scaled that down after all the criticisms. I don't think Sony's really influencing sites to give the game perfect scores. I mean, if that's the case, why haven't they done it for other games in the past?

Edit: Hmm, clip doesn't want to play for some reason, but basically you can search it on Youtube, it's called 10/10 Game Reivew: the truth. It's from a former IGN reviewer.

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Old 06-18-2020, 02:22 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague View Post
The obvious solution to all of this is to just wait 12 hours and play the thing and see if it's any good. I haven't watched a single trailer or read a single review or looked at any art at all, personally, but it's so close to release at this point that arguing about whether to have high expectations or not seems kind of pointless.
It's just a discussion, not an argument. I would say 95% of the discussions here are pointless, but it's better than work
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Old 06-18-2020, 02:39 PM   #27
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It's just a discussion, not an argument. I would say 95% of the discussions here are pointless, but it's better than work
<.< >.>

Heh. For me, I'm pretty heavily story driven in a game. I can forgive a lot of gameplay 'stuff' if the story is top notch. So when I hear reviews say that they can only review the first half of the story, and that they feel that the story will be polarizing...that makes me cautious. I am the "play it myself and decide for myself" type, but I do like pre-release reviews.
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Old 06-18-2020, 07:55 PM   #28
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I hope I love it, but I don't see any point in getting dismissive of someone who isn't sure they will too.
I’m more dismissive of how dramatic he’s being about it. Canceling his preorder, calling it potentially franchise killing bad, worse than Mass Effect Andromeda (which had a LOT of negative reviews pre-release) — there’s being cautious because of some criticism you read, and then there’s swinging all the way to hyperbolically pessimistic in a matter of hours.
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Old 06-18-2020, 10:34 PM   #29
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Old 06-19-2020, 07:02 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Yen Man View Post
I think this clip helps shed some light on how IGN scores games.



People perceive a 10/10 game as flawless, while the IGN definition is "masterpiece", which just means it's one of the best they've played. It doesn't actually mean it's flawless.

I do agree that IGN did throw out too many 10/10 scores in the past, but I feel like they've scaled that down after all the criticisms. I don't think Sony's really influencing sites to give the game perfect scores. I mean, if that's the case, why haven't they done it for other games in the past?

Edit: Hmm, clip doesn't want to play for some reason, but basically you can search it on Youtube, it's called 10/10 Game Reivew: the truth. It's from a former IGN reviewer.
I have always preferred the IGN website but Gamespot IMO has always been much more reliable for reviews. You can pretty well count on any IGN review on a Sony first party game to receive an inflated review score. This has been their pattern for decades. I don't doubt that this game is worthy of praise but this game was was pencilled in to receive a 10 before IGN even got their hands on a review copy. I really do enjoy most first party Sony games but as a person that always owns both consoles I always feel their 1st party games don't live up to the high scores they receive. They are all high quality but not perfect and the flaws get ignored because many reviewers at heart are fanboys and lack the objectivity to provide an accurate review. I feel one of the worst reviewed first party Sony games (Days Gone) was one of their best games (way better than Spiderman which is one of the most repetitive games in recent history) in some time but for some reason reviewers just weren't as enthused about that game going into it maybe because it was a new IP.
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Old 06-19-2020, 07:12 AM   #31
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<.< >.>

Heh. For me, I'm pretty heavily story driven in a game. I can forgive a lot of gameplay 'stuff' if the story is top notch. So when I hear reviews say that they can only review the first half of the story, and that they feel that the story will be polarizing...that makes me cautious. I am the "play it myself and decide for myself" type, but I do like pre-release reviews.
I prefer balance as a great story and mediocre gameplay to me does not make a great game. TLOU was well balanced in that the story was fantastic and the gameplay was high quality. I'm not overly worried about this sequel being overly violent as that stuff doesn't really offend or bother me (I own a DVD copy of A Serbian Film) and as long as the story is good and the gameplay on the same level of the first I'm sure I'm going to really enjoy it. That said I can understand that some people may not be able to stomach what seems to be a dark and negative tone. We will have to wait and see what happens when the masses get their hands on it so find out.
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Old 06-19-2020, 07:57 AM   #32
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I prefer balance as a great story and mediocre gameplay to me does not make a great game. TLOU was well balanced in that the story was fantastic and the gameplay was high quality. I'm not overly worried about this sequel being overly violent as that stuff doesn't really offend or bother me (I own a DVD copy of A Serbian Film) and as long as the story is good and the gameplay on the same level of the first I'm sure I'm going to really enjoy it. That said I can understand that some people may not be able to stomach what seems to be a dark and negative tone. We will have to wait and see what happens when the masses get their hands on it so find out.
I prefer a good balance, but find that story edges gameplay for me. Oddly enough for me, I don't mind violence at all, but what's most worrisome to me is that folks are saying this one is so BLEAK. Honestly, I get enough of that at work, and need my games a bit more escapist than that. I realize it's a weird headspace to work with, and that it's probably "just me".
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Old 06-19-2020, 09:51 AM   #33
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I prefer a good balance, but find that story edges gameplay for me. Oddly enough for me, I don't mind violence at all, but what's most worrisome to me is that folks are saying this one is so BLEAK. Honestly, I get enough of that at work, and need my games a bit more escapist than that. I realize it's a weird headspace to work with, and that it's probably "just me".
Yeah, that's what irks me too. From what I read, it seems like there are complaints there isn't enough breaks in between the bleak which is part of the formula of why the first was so successful. It's not pure comedy like Dead Rising, but it's not pure survival horror either. If it's that badly bleak, I'm better pulling RE7 and The Evil Within 2 off my side burner and crushing that.

Love survival horror, but lately with stresses and Covid etc. I need video games as a means of mental decompressing significantly more than stimulation. I am still tempted as hell to run out and grab a copy of TLOU2.
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Old 06-19-2020, 10:27 AM   #34
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I don't blame the game studio as they could never have predicted we would be in this unprecedented time. It's simply a case of really bad timing.
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Old 06-19-2020, 05:48 PM   #35
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i find it all the hate a bit odd with LOU2. I have avoided any of the spoiler leaks, but understand broadly why ppl are against it...

I mean, the first game was pretty bleak too, wasn't it? Violence in video games has existed since the start of video games...

Seems like bad ratings bombarding Metacritic are ppl with a political agenda or are bots... the people complaining strike me as the same ilk as those who complained about female (gasp) Ghostbusters or Furiosa being the main hero ahead of Mad Max

First game was a masterpiece and i expect the second to be as well

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Old 06-19-2020, 06:34 PM   #36
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Well, for one - the all-female Ghostbusters movie sucked, so people can hate on that all day. Mad Max with Furiosa was an awesome flick though - so clearly those opposed to it are loons!

The Last of Us Part II has a political/social agenda. It’s quite up front about it. But hey, this is art. Games, Movies, Comics, Books - whatever, it’s all art. Plenty of art has political/social agendas. People being for it or against it is bound to happen as not all people are agreeable, nor should we all be agreeable.

I’m a solid 9 or 10 hours into it so far, and while some of it is certainly jarring - I find the intensity of the original to be in tact. I’m enjoying it. The social/political aspects of the story are there - but they don't seem cheaply done so far (*cough*Last Jedi*cough*). Everything in this game seems incredibly well polished and thought out.

For those being sensitive around the violence...the violence itself is a character. You have to pay attention to it, and how it impacts you and how you feel while playing the game.

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Old 06-20-2020, 07:25 AM   #37
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I found this review to be really helpful, and from what other reviews I've seen, it seems most points here are somewhat shared by other reviewers, with the exception that the things this guy didn't like they liked.



Basically, if you liked the gameplay in TLOU1, you'll probably enjoy this because it's just more of that but more polished, and I think the review gives a good overall idea at what the story is going to be like.

Some will like it because it's very focused and atmospheric and grim, the visuals and overall craftmanship are top notch, and others will hate it because the characters are unlikable, the writing suffers from plausibility issues and the gameplay is what it is.

It's why I think this is such a good review, because it doesn't try to say the game is "good" or "bad", but mostly explains what's good and bad about it and why he himself didn't like it, so you can figure out for yourself if you're likely to enjoy it.

Personally I'm going to pass because it sounds like TLOU2 is more of the stuff I didn't like and less of the stuff I liked, but others will feel the opposite, and that's fine. The studio had a vision of what they wanted to do and committed to it instead of trying to please everyone, and I hope the game does well enough to justify that approach even if it's not for me.

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Old 06-20-2020, 07:33 AM   #38
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I might actually try and wait for a PS5 version
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Old 06-20-2020, 08:44 AM   #39
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I'm about four hours in - I can't imagine any fan of the first game, or any fan of this style of game in general (third person cinematic action-adventure type stuff) wouldn't find this incredible. Presentation is excellent, a new benchmark in visuals and audio design. Story has been compelling so far and already taken an unexpected turn, though obviously too early to comment on how I feel on that overall. I find the gameplay really tense and exciting, and like the variety of options it presents and builds upon what was in the first. And I was surprised to find a semi-open world area that pushes you to explore some interesting areas. It's fantastic so far!
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Old 06-20-2020, 02:32 PM   #40
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I might actually try and wait for a PS5 version
That's what I'm doing for it and Ghost of Tsushima. It gives me more time to knock down my never ending backlog.
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