The Derek Chauvin trial is underway..GUILTY on all charges

[81MC]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

No, WTF, it's the police who say they're always in harms way and in a position to die. This is how they try and justify shootings.

They want to be heroes. That's why they get into policing. Let them be heroes by accepting the enormous risk that comes with heroism. Let them put their lives on the line to save the lives of others, even those who might be unworthy.

Man, this is unreal.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by PostandIn

Heard on the Smerconish radio show, quoting some study that appeared to have some legitimacy, that in the general population about 7% have sociopathic tendencies. In law enforcement the number rises to 40%. That's most of the problem right there. The raw material, pre-training for skills development, and indoctrination (into the law enforcement milieu with their reflexive tendency to lie about, and cover-up, lousy behaviour, plus the systemic problems brought by the union framework) needs to be far better.

I wonder if the "sociopathic tendency" thing is more a function of the job, and not a revelation of the recruitment process. Of course training, skill development, all that is a need/gap/problem to be addressed, but (just guessing here) if that same study included healthcare workers, social workers, etc. it would probably be higher than the general population too.

To be in these jobs and see the kinds of things you see, a lack of empathy or a certain callousness is probably required to some extent.

[Monahammer]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

I don't think that's fair.

Why not? I'm genuinely asking. How can you still be proud to be a cop when you watch situation after situation unfold like this? I actually want to know I am not being obtuse and I won't even disagree- I just don't understand.

[Monahammer]

Originally Posted by 81MC

Man, this is unreal.

What's unreal about it? Isn't that the primary motivation to become an officer? To serve and protect?

Maybe we shouldn't give guns to people who are just doing something to make money with no deeper motivation.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

Why not? I'm genuinely asking. How can you still be proud to be a cop when you watch situation after situation unfold like this? I actually want to know I am not being obtuse and I won't even disagree- I just don't understand.

I don't think a police officer here today, of which in my experience on CP counts a few genuinely great, intelligent, and understanding officers, should feel more or less proud of how they or their role contribute to society, based on some idiocy in another country.

[Monahammer]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

idiocy in another country.

https://calgaryherald.com/opinion/columnists/corbella-9

Hm.


Here was one that happened last week near Edmonton on a reserve: https://www.alberta.ca/release.cfm?x...1E82C1D7302E6E

The ASIRT team already been pretty busy this year.
https://www.alberta.ca/asirt-news-releases.aspx

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

Why not? I'm genuinely asking. How can you still be proud to be a cop when you watch situation after situation unfold like this? I actually want to know I am not being obtuse and I won't even disagree- I just don't understand.

Because a cop in Calgary doesn't really have any control over this situation. Not all cops are bad, many do good work and should be proud of that.

[PostandIn]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

I wonder if the "sociopathic tendency" thing is more a function of the job, and not a revelation of the recruitment process. Of course training, skill development, all that is a need/gap/problem to be addressed, but (just guessing here) if that same study included healthcare workers, social workers, etc. it would probably be higher than the general population too.

To be in these jobs and see the kinds of things you see, a lack of empathy or a certain callousness is probably required to some extent.

Likely both. These professions attract a segment of the population enamored with the uniform / badge / gun and the authority that comes with those things. It's validation for a certain kind of personality. Then there's literally every street cop, sociopathic tendencies or not, that gets hardened by dealing day-in, day-out with many of the worst elements of society. First responders and front line people (cops, paramedics, corrections, etc.) and military are significant outliers for mental trauma and related conditions like PTSD versus the general population.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

https://calgaryherald.com/opinion/columnists/corbella-9

Hm.


Here was one that happened last week near Edmonton on a reserve: https://www.alberta.ca/release.cfm?x...1E82C1D7302E6E

The ASIRT team already been pretty busy this year.
https://www.alberta.ca/asirt-news-releases.aspx

I pretty reasonably assumed you were speaking on topic, regarding the shooting of the boy in the US, which we are all currently talking about. You want to go off about police in Calgary or Edmonton in general, go off, I won't stop you, but there is literally a thread for that if you want to have that conversation so I'm not sure why you wouldn't use it.

My comment wasn't a denial of problems here, it was confusion over the incident we're talking about should impact officers here. I'd expect you to understand that.

[81MC]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Because a cop in Calgary doesn't really have any control over this situation. Not all cops are bad, many do good work and should be proud of that.

Absolutely.

The rate of these terrible outcomes to tots police/civilian interactions is very, very low. Painting the thousands and thousands of officers with the same brush is totally unjust.

And sure, an officer wants to serve and protect. But the idea that they have a hero complex and deserve the risk of their life being less valuable than those they interact with? That’s ####ed.

Like, do firefighters also have some sort of hero complex and deserve to run into death trap buildings that don’t meet fire code because, we’ll, they want to be hero’s they can lay their life in the line?


I take serious, serious umbrage with someone disparaging all the people who take on these exceptionally difficult roles in society. It’s really easy to smack talk these people I suppose, but I’m sorry, there are people who are just more important, more valuable, and more serving to society than most of us. If that’s an affront to you, deal with it.

Police, fire, EMS, nurses. People who generally don’t get to drive around in S-class Mercedes for their efforts, but routinely deal with situations most of us couldn’t handle. A little bit of empathy for those masses if you can’t muster the respect, is in order.

[Monahammer]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Because a cop in Calgary doesn't really have any control over this situation. Not all cops are bad, many do good work and should be proud of that.

I can definitely accept that not all cops are bad, ive met plenty who are very good people to me. I don't want to give the impression that I think anyone who is a police officer is a bad person.

But, good people on a personal level can often get swept up into a mob mentality, an us vs them mentality, or even just a structural situation that makes them do things that they probably wouldn't do outside of the context of in the uniform and on patrol.

Beyond that, if you continue to uphold a status quo and organizational system that seems to consistently be problematic to healthy society shouldn't your immediate motivation be to change that system? I know all too well that the reality of this is no- you get set in your ways, you don't want to upset the group that you're a part of. The same principle applies to a group of college kids who engage in Hazing- usually not all of them or not even close to all of them are self motivated, but they fall into a group habit driven by structure, history, and comfort that detaches their "normal" behaviour from how they act in these scenarios.

[Monahammer]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

I pretty reasonably assumed you were speaking on topic, regarding the shooting of the boy in the US, which we are all currently talking about. You want to go off about police in Calgary or Edmonton in general, go off, I won't stop you, but there is literally a thread for that if you want to have that conversation so I'm not sure why you wouldn't use it.

My comment wasn't a denial of problems here, it was confusion over the incident we're talking about should impact officers here. I'd expect you to understand that.

This is somewhat fair, but I genuinely don't believe you can separate the culture and activities of north american police forces. They're based on the same model, often involve the same people or policies, there is plenty of cross training and transfer etc. I do understand your point, but I get very frustrated when people try to say policing is a problem isolated in the United States. No doubt the issues are magnified there and frankly more guns equals much higher stakes, but we have problems here too. They need to be addressed.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

I can definitely accept that not all cops are bad, ive met plenty who are very good people to me. I don't want to give the impression that I think anyone who is a police officer is a bad person.

But, good people on a personal level can often get swept up into a mob mentality, an us vs them mentality, or even just a structural situation that makes them do things that they probably wouldn't do outside of the context of in the uniform and on patrol.

Beyond that, if you continue to uphold a status quo and organizational system that seems to consistently be problematic to healthy society shouldn't your immediate motivation be to change that system? I know all too well that the reality of this is no- you get set in your ways, you don't want to upset the group that you're a part of. The same principle applies to a group of college kids who engage in Hazing- usually not all of them or not even close to all of them are self motivated, but they fall into a group habit driven by structure, history, and comfort that detaches their "normal" behaviour from how they act in these scenarios.

Should the vast majority of college students who don't engage in hazing, and even those firmly against hazing, feel any less proud over their accomplishments as college students because of the few?

Your comment is probably going to be misread because it comes off like you're questioning the validity of good police officers being proud to be police officers, because bad ones exist. And it's just not fair or reasonable, even if that's not how you meant it.

EDIT: And to be clear, I think you can recognize the problems, work to change the culture, and still be proud of your profession, maybe especially so as you work to change it.

[Captain Otto]

Originally Posted by 81MC

Absolutely.

The rate of these terrible outcomes to tots police/civilian interactions is very, very low. Painting the thousands and thousands of officers with the same brush is totally unjust.

And sure, an officer wants to serve and protect. But the idea that they have a hero complex and deserve the risk of their life being less valuable than those they interact with? That’s ####ed.

Like, do firefighters also have some sort of hero complex and deserve to run into death trap buildings that don’t meet fire code because, we’ll, they want to be hero’s they can lay their life in the line?


I take serious, serious umbrage with someone disparaging all the people who take on these exceptionally difficult roles in society. It’s really easy to smack talk these people I suppose, but I’m sorry, there are people who are just more important, more valuable, and more serving to society than most of us. If that’s an affront to you, deal with it.

Police, fire, EMS, nurses. People who generally don’t get to drive around in S-class Mercedes for their efforts, but routinely deal with situations most of us couldn’t handle. A little bit of empathy for those masses if you can’t muster the respect, is in order.

Great post.

I know you've explained it before but damn, hard to connect this post with your user name!!

[jgotti]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

y'all cops in this thread still proud to be a cop? If so, why and how?

What a idiotic post that doesn't deserve to be responded or answered. Comicial

[Monahammer]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Should the vast majority of college students who don't engage in hazing, and even those firmly against hazing, feel any less proud over their accomplishments as college students because of the few?

Your comment is probably going to be misread because it comes off like you're questioning the validity of good police officers being proud to be police officers, because bad ones exist. And it's just not fair or reasonable, even if that's not how you meant it.

Let's shorten your comparison to student groups (generally the hazing mostly happens in Athletics clubs or greek organizations.) And yes, the response certainly does have to be mass shame. That's how change happens.

http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc...=rep1&type=pdf

Here is a dissertation from a PHD student in Arizona that delves into the whys of Hazing. The resulting find is that disrupting institutional history and traditions, abolishment of old values and replacement with new values, and past shame are all key ingredients in disturbing the thought process that makes "good" people do things that seem irreconcilable with their normal comportment.

II may be coming off as quite incentive here, but in truth I think it's warranted. I wanted to be a police officer once, I went to the high school training fun day and everything. When I was there, I found myself pulling out my wooden gun way too often for my own comfort. Decided immediately that this was not my path- I dont have the innate courage necessary to go into a dangerous situation without the obvious upper hand in power being displayed. I'm not even sure that's something that can be trained into people. But in my honest opinion, that is what we should expect and hope for from those we authorize to use force to protect the public.

[Monahammer]

Originally Posted by jgotti

What a idiotic post that doesn't deserve to be responded or answered. Comicial

I don't find anything about criticizing a group of people given guns to be comical. Just like I don't find anything about the frequent use of unnecessary force by police officers across North America comical.

[troutman]

Originally Posted by 81MC

I’m sorry, there are people who are just more important, more valuable, and more serving to society than most of us.

I like most of your post, except for this.

[PaperBagger'14]

Originally Posted by troutman

I like most of your post, except for this.

What is it you disagree with in that sentence? I've always believed no 2 people are equal as everyone has unique strengths and weaknesses in every facet of our being. I also believe having these differences / inequalities from person to person is a good thing.

[81MC]

Originally Posted by troutman

I like most of your post, except for this.

Yeah, it’s a crudely phrased sentiment. What I mean, I suppose, is that these are positions that tend to have more immediately critical implications. And usually involving peoples life safety.

Obviously, the guy who fixing the ambulance or mowing lawns isn’t a less ‘valuable’ person; the outcomes of their work are just less critical, the majority of the time.

Most of us get put into tough situations that require quick action, but that might mean a few minutes to look over the data, or read the manual, or consult with our business partners. And if we make the wrong call, we’re often not either killing or being killed. We have the luxury of not only being removed from immediate threats, but having time and redundancy’s to prevent serious negative outcomes. 2 seconds of error in most positions is not likely to result in tragedy for most people.

Not to mention, most people could not mentally cope with what those roles deal with. If I had to attend a scene with a dying child or a severed limb or an abusive spouse, I would never, ever be the same. These people do this as a part of their daily life, and I certainly hold that in higher regard than my ability to lay a good clear coat.

I mean, athletes who train their entire lives and make literally millions make errors of judgement or execution all the time. When they’re ‘under pressure’ the outcome is a ball goes somewhere they don’t want. The absolute top performers, with no real threats, make mistakes all the time.

These people make mistakes and peoples lives are ruined. Yet someone gets their name on peoples back and drive Ferraris, we’ll someone gets called a pig, or has their middle class income questioned.