Brad Treliving needs to go

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Pointman

Hindsight and all, but Bennett was a questionable pick. Drafting a guy, whose main qualities are compete level and work ethic is always risky. They can stop working hard at any given moment. Bennett just had unreal amount of energy in his body in his late teens and that fooled scouts into thinking that he can maintain that into his mid 20s. In reality, playing such game at the NHL level with his undersized body wore him out fairy fast.



"He plays the kind of game you think cannot be sustained for a whole season because it’s a high-energy game and compete game at all ends of the ice. He ends up playing that game for the whole year. He just never stops"

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/...1st-round-pick

You stopped right before the quote says “you put that together with the skill package he has...”. That article also says he has elite vision and is good everywhere on the ice. And that he was the #1 ranked NA skater. Your “questionable pick” was one every single other team would have made.

There’s plenty to criticize Treliving about without pretending he blew the pick as opposed to the pick not living up to consensus scouting.

[The Original FFIV]

Originally Posted by Pointman

Hindsight and all, but Bennett was a questionable pick. Drafting a guy, whose main qualities are compete level and work ethic is always risky. They can stop working hard at any given moment. Bennett just had unreal amount of energy in his body in his late teens and that fooled scouts into thinking that he can maintain that into his mid 20s. In reality, playing such game at the NHL level with his undersized body wore him out fairy fast.



"He plays the kind of game you think cannot be sustained for a whole season because it’s a high-energy game and compete game at all ends of the ice. He ends up playing that game for the whole year. He just never stops"

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/...1st-round-pick

There was a distinct consensus top 4 that year and Bennett fell to us. We would have howled if the flames picked anyone but him. It was just a bad year to tank with a weak draft. We were two years removed from being told that Jankowski could be the best player coming out of the draft so going off the board would have been bad optics. Knowing what we did at the time, he was the right pick. Just didn’t turn out.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Pointman

Hindsight and all, but Bennett was a questionable pick. Drafting a guy, whose main qualities are compete level and work ethic is always risky.

Originally Posted by GioforPM

You stopped right before the quote says “you put that together with the skill package he has...”. That article also says he has elite vision and is good everywhere on the ice. And that he was the #1 ranked NA skater. Your “questionable pick” was one every single other team would have made.



There’s plenty to criticize Treliving about without pretending he blew the pick as opposed to the pick not living up to consensus scouting.

From the same article: "At his top potential, Bennett is an All-Star, first-line center who can top out at 90-95 points. He could become a team captain down the road and a regular at the NHL Awards and All-Star Game." Another scout says, ""Elite offensive skill and vision. May have the strongest stick in the league. Never gets outmuscled and torques his body to win battles."

Yeah, revisiting the Bennett pick and calling it "risky" is baffling. It was risky like every draft pick is risky.

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[blender]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

I should've added to the post, that it's of utmost importance to NOT pick the wrong guy. I think a lot of GMs have been fooled by picking the wrong players to build around and it's basically sullied their hard work.

It's like building a house. Don't pick the wrong material to build your foundation on or years of building and investing and decorating and collecting could come crashing down like the Flames of 2021. Build with the right foundation and eventually you'll end up with a master piece. Some homes may look better than others and will get more attention, but if you can live in your home comfortably for years or decades without worrying about it all crashing down one day, that's a home worth living in.

Not a good metaphor at all.
A house does need a good foundation, but there are absolutely no unknowns as to what materials to use. Choosing 18-year-old hockey players is a completely different exercise fraught with unknowns.

As mentioned many times here, Sam Bennett is the perfect example of the right pick gone wrong; even with all signs pointing up, you still are not guaranteed a successful outcome.

Building a house is far more simple and straightforward.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Flamesfan05

That’s not bad luck

That is the very definition of bad luck. Projecting 17- and 18-year-old kids into adulthood is not an exact science.

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[Pointman]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

You stopped right before the quote says “you put that together with the skill package he has...”. That article also says he has elite vision and is good everywhere on the ice. And that he was the #1 ranked NA skater. Your “questionable pick” was one every single other team would have made.

There’s plenty to criticize Treliving about without pretending he blew the pick as opposed to the pick not living up to consensus scouting.

If you hire a schoolboy as GM, and he drafts according to consensus scouting, would he be free of criticism as well? Does it take a lot of skill, hockey sense and insight make a 4OA pick according to central scouting bureau?

[Winsor_Pilates]

Reading those scouting quotes about Bennett makes me even sader.
Imagine we had the hockey player they're describing.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

From the same article: "At his top potential, Bennett is an All-Star, first-line center who can top out at 90-95 points. He could become a team captain down the road and a regular at the NHL Awards and All-Star Game." Another scout says, ""Elite offensive skill and vision. May have the strongest stick in the league. Never gets outmuscled and torques his body to win battles."

Yeah, revisiting the Bennett pick and calling it "risky" is baffling. It was risky like every draft pick is risky.

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I quoted parts that are relevant to understanding why Bennett failed. His game was predicated on a boundless energy his body possessed. When you draft a 6'0 guy who never gets out muscled in juniors, you have to consider if he will still be able to do it in the NHL. How long his undersized body can sustain playing such a style. A hardworking wizard could probably do a bit more here than just pick the next highest ranked skater from a magazine.

[Flamesfan05]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

That is the very definition of bad luck. Projecting 17- and 18-year-old kids into adulthood is not an exact science.

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Sorry, they are well paid professional scout. They made a pick that turned out to be bad. They were wrong. It's not bad luck. The fact that there were others that were wrong does not make it bad luck.


Bad luck is to draw a bad ball from a bag.

[Joborule]

Originally Posted by Flamesfan05

Basically tank harder?

It'll be the only thing the Flames haven't tried since their cup win in 89'. Aside from one cinderella run, absolutely nothing has worked since then.

So this team completely embracing the tank philosophy would be a welcomed one, because they are actually trying to build foundational future pieces that can yield sustained success, rather than continue lost at the sea of mediocracy they've been on for over three decades.

Quite frankly, they are lucky they are in a Canadian market. As a result, they have had a fanbase support them significantly more than they would've if they were a US team. Especially if they were a southern non-traditional market. They've likely would've moved by now. (Again)

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Winsor_Pilates

Reading those scouting quotes about Bennett makes me even sader.
Imagine we had the hockey player they're describing.

No kidding. That is my takeaway.

You always have to keep in mind how overhyped these publicized scouting reports are. Most of these picks have superlative qualities that are emphasized and most of what they’re referring to is relative to other juniors.

The NHL draft would be so different if players were being picked at age 20 or so.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Pointman

I quoted parts that are relevant to understanding why Bennett failed. His game was predicated on a boundless energy his body possessed. When you draft a 6'0 guy who never gets out muscled in juniors, you have to consider if he will still be able to do it in the NHL. How long his undersized body can sustain playing such a style. A hardworking wizard could probably do a bit more here than just pick the next highest ranked skater from a magazine.

I understand that people are angry, and they are looking for simple solutions to what they perceive to be a massive, foreseeable problem. But the revisionist history about Treliving like this is utter garbage.

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[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Flamesfan05

Sorry, they are well paid professional scout. They made a pick that turned out to be bad. They were wrong. It's not bad luck. The fact that there were others that were wrong does not make it bad luck.


Bad luck is to draw a bad ball from a bag.

So naive.

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[Flamesfan05]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

So naive.

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Thanks. Better argument is welcome though

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Flamesfan05

Thanks. Better argument is welcome though

Says the guy who posted this:

Originally Posted by Flamesfan05

I don’t think suck can be classified as damaged

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[DeluxeMoustache]

There is something to be said for self awareness

Originally Posted by Textcritic

God. This is just not helpful at all.

[Flamesfan05]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Says the guy who posted this:



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Still waiting on explanation on why the NHL draft is all luck

[mikephoen]

Puljujärvi was the overwhelming consensus #3 pick, but Kekäläinen recognized the huge flaws in his game and made a smarter pick. It's not impossible to do that.

But even after picking Bennett, Treliving could have listened to his Stanley Cup winning coach who told him that Bennett wasn't smart enough to play centre in the NHL and moved him after his rookie year while his value was still incredibly high. But nope, he chose to fire that coach and bring in GG to pamper his 'stars' and not upset them.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

No elite #1 Center.

Who have been the Flames' foundational pieces for the last several decades?

Theo Fleury, Jarome Iginla, Johnny Gaudreau and soon to be Matthew Tkachuk.

This team has built their team on franchise wingers for as long as I've been in a fan of this team (young guns era). In that time we've also seen elite goaltenders, deep group on defense, quality wingers, all kinds of coaches (modern & veteran), small team, big team, skilled team, gritty team, young team, older team and etc etc etc.

But something I haven't personally seen yet is that elite, no questions asked, true #1 center. Olli Jokinen and Sean Monahan have been the closest, but if this team is trying to win a Stanley Cup or win multiple playoff rounds, is Sean Monahan going to out duel a Nathan McKinnon or a prime Ryan Getzlaf or a Leon Draisaitl of today?

If this organization ever wants to find one of these guys, then they have to draft one. They also have to stop picking #6 or #13 and etc. Generally speaking, these types of elite centers go first in a draft. Be patient, stop going the quick fix route (UFAs) and don't stop rebuilding until you find that guy(s).

So do you you think it’s just bad luck that the Flames have had a succession of GMs unwilling to adopt this patient strategy? Do you think it’s unreasonable to surmise that ownership played some role in refusing a team strategy that involves a virtual guarantee of missing the playoffs for 3-6 seasons?

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Flamesfan05

Still waiting on explanation on why the NHL draft is all luck

I have posted pretty extensively about this above, but the strawman that you have constructed of my thoughts are not that the NHL Draft is "all luck." Rather, a good deal of luck very frequently plays into success. If it was as straightforward as you seem to imagine, with the millions of dollars invested into scouting there would never be any surprises, and every pick would be entirely predictable.

Like I said: it is naive to imagine that even the best scouts will always pick a winner.

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