What is the main problem with the on ice product?

[Owen15]

Originally Posted by Harry Lime

I think that this team needs to do something that is scary for management, and that is to rebuild on the fly.

Whenever a high end D+2 (approx) player comes available, do to whatever development problems on the selling team, I think that Calgary has to jump on it. Take those chances on a high pedigree.

Some of them are obvious. Filip Zadina is rumored to be available by Detroit media. They are a you team that needs leadership and have nearly no long term contracts. They have high end young Swedish players. Dangle them Backlund for Zadina.

The new York rangers have serious internal issues with the handling of Vitali Kravtsov. They recently lost Lias Anderson to a similar situation, and recieved a 2nd round pick at the draft for him. Calgary is heavy on LD prospects. Offer Porier and Florida's 2022 2nd for him.

All of the sudden the future RW depth becomes Coranto, Kravtsov, Zadina overnight. Dube moves to center where he is much more effective. Zadina steps in right away and is a natural passer for Monahan.

The problem IMO is lack of risk taking to move out of mediocrity.

I think you nailed it.

The reluctance to rebuild on really any level isn’t working. And our loyalty to tenured players is admirable but killing us.

[Jiri Hrdina]

I think those scenarios look good on paper, but it's questionable if Detroit would move a guy like Zadina for Backlund. Frankly from my POV it makes no sense for the Wings to do that. Part of re-building is maintaining that cap flexibility.
So when we ask "why don't the Flames make a deal like X" it often is because the X doesn't make sense for the other team.

[Harry Lime]

Detroit has consistency and issues with on ice coaching. Backlund is exactly who they should target, but it's always a question of perspective, and whether they can steal him at a reasonable rate from Calgary. I would ask for 1M retention.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by 1qqaaz

I think the Schwartz and Granlund contracts signed this past summer were reasonable.

Granlund is on a career high pace for points...if he maintains that it'll be a great contract...if the next 3.5 years are like his previous 4 years it'll still be a fair enough deal. The term is great...though it was also re-signing where he'd been for 2.25 seasons.

Schwartz deal is fine...not sure it's much better/worse than say Coleman, but time will tell.

My point is just that the Hossa/Chara/Niedermayer UFA deals are particularly rare. We've had our fair share of "fair(ish)" UFA deals: Tanev, Markstrom, Ryan, Frolik, Hudler, Wideman, (Coleman TBD)...

Also plenty of whiffs: Neal, Brouwer, Raymond...though I'm not sure our failure % is particularly bad (below average to be sure), but rather the dependence on building this ways.

That's at least 10 3x3+ UFA (team changing) deals in 10 years...Raymond/Ryan being the only ~3x3s, Hudler/Tanev/Brouwer as 4x4ish and the rest being 5 years or more.


I doubt there are many other teams that have relied on UFAs that much

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by Harry Lime

Detroit has consistency and issues with on ice coaching. Backlund is exactly who they should target, but it's always a question of perspective, and whether they can steal him at a reasonable rate from Calgary. I would ask for 1M retention.

Detroit could back up that veteran presence in UFA for a small cap hit. They don’t need to pick up players other teams want to dump to do that.

If Backlund is such a steal, why does everyone want to get rid of him?

[gvitaly]

What is the main problem with the on ice product?

First of all I want to say that the on ice product this year is a lot better than I expected going into this year.

In my opinion the main problem is that many of our promising prospects stalled after one or two years in the NHL. I guess you can say that about most teams, but it feels/felt like Valimaki/Kylington/Bennett/Jankowski/Dube/Mackey have/had more to give.

You need elite talent to teach and guide more elite talent. I think this is especially showing in our center ranks. All of Bennett, Jankowski, and Dube could've benefited from a veteran number 1 center on their team.

In my opinion this team struggles because it expects its rookies to not make mistakes. In doing so, it essentially stifles their creativity. We all wait for the game to slow down for them to make plays, but it doesn't.

That said, as Sutter demonstrated there's space in the NHL for checking hockey. However, at times you need to create plays the other team doesn't expect. Chaos in the other team's zone often leads to good scoring chances. We don't create as many of these chances because we want to be sound defensively.

Regardless of how things turn out this season whenever we push the rebuild button I hope we get some ex superstars in the lineup, the likes of Thorton/Spezza/Gio/Suter to teach the upcoming kids what it takes.

[Harry Lime]

Originally Posted by The Cobra

Detroit could back up that veteran presence in UFA for a small cap hit. They don’t need to pick up players other teams want to dump to do that.

If Backlund is such a steal, why does everyone want to get rid of him?

Coleman is basically Backlund on the wing. When there is a question of redundancy, I think that it is natural to look at moving an asset to shore up a position of weakness. This is also partially driven by the fact that I think Dillon Dube looked way better at centre instead of wing, and had chemistry with Eat Bread. From my point of view, if Backlund were moved, a second line of Coleman/Dube/Mangiapane would not lose much in the way of defense (with Coleman present) and see a bump in offense. That also means that whatever the return for Backlund would be, could be used to bolster the third line.

This isn't a knock against Backlund. I think that he will end up being a coach once his tenure in the NHL is finished. He's a solid player, but brings a lot of value to team building. Detroit has no one with that skill set. It shows. Calgary also has Lucic and Tanev with the ability to player/coach.

These guys don't end up UFA as often as you think. There is a reason why Backlund inked into the roster this long, and it's not just his play on the ice.

Anyway, for the purposes of this thread, it's simply an example of what Calgary should do to get themselves out of decades of mediocrity. Be aggressive with acquiring D+2 (and D+3) players that have issues with their usage and management. They are out there right now.

[Macho0978]

100% center depth is the issue. I know lots never liked Monahan but at one point he and Gaudreau were the offence. They could produce with guys like David Jones on their line. Sean Monahan is no where near what he once was. If he was this team would be competitive with Vegas for the division. Without him playing at that level this team has a huge holes on the 2nd line. IMO the 3rd and 4th line are ok and the first is amazing. But since mangiapane has slowed up the 2nd line is producing like a 4th line.

Also think Flames could be on the verge if they traded Backlund not Bennett. Sutter finally got him going and maybe it was too late by then but even Bennett on the 2nd line and Monahan on the 3rd this team is better and contract wise much better.

If we can keep the top line at a reasonable price imo replacing this version of Sean Monahan won’t be hard at all though. Johnny Tkachuk and Lindholm are having a very good season 5 on 5 that if you had someone better than Monahan on that pp the sky is still the limit with those 3. Really don’t get many points on the pp but monahan and no real pp dman they are having great seasons despite this. Just not sure if the contracts will be reasonable at this point. Wouldn’t be shocked if we sell big time at the deadline. If they keep losing we may actually see a rebuild

[Macho0978]

People say we don’t have top end talent. Anderson is not a top pp dman. Maybe a 2nd unit pp dman at best. Monahan is done. Lindholm and Tkachuk have 10 pp points. Gaudreau has a whole 7 effing pp points this year. Insert Cale Makar or Victor Hedman or Roman Josi and another forward who isn’t a 4th liner on our first pp and you could easily see 5 to 10 more points on the pp for these guys. If Johnny had 49 points right now I bet we wouldn’t be saying we have no top end players

Lindholm might win the selke. Bostons first line is elite but Bergeron doesn’t get 100 points a year. Clearly Lindholm is still underrated because he’s that type of player.

[djsFlames]

Definitely top end talent.

Maybe it's just the TYPE of skill down the line up. And that type is perhaps too 'similar' between the top players.

Lindholm is great but not dynamic, Tkachuk same thing, hard nosed and gritty in the corners, but that doesn't get you out of your seat.

Most of the team doesn't have high end wheels.

That's part of what makes Kylington such a standout on this team. He might be the only elite skater.

A lot of guys bring a very bland style to the table. Only Mangiapane can bring Gaudreau's flash on his goals.

This team really needs some guys like Poirier (the defenseman) in its future line up. Someone that can be electric at both ends of the rink and have the confidence to make some creative plays.

I feel like our guys have given up trying to be creative in favour of tending to the details and making the coach happy, which they aren't even doing well now either.

[Macho0978]

Originally Posted by djsFlames

Definitely top end talent.

Maybe it's just the TYPE of skill down the line up. And that type is perhaps too 'similar' between the top players.

Lindholm is great but not dynamic, Tkachuk same thing, hard nosed and gritty in the corners, but that doesn't get you out of your seat.

Most of the team doesn't have high end wheels.

That's part of what makes Kylington such a standout on this team. He might be the only elite skater.

A lot of guys bring a very bland style to the table. Only Mangiapane can bring Gaudreau's flash on his goals.

This team really needs some guys like Poirier (the defenseman) in its future line up. Someone that can be electric at both ends of the rink and have the confidence to make some creative plays.

I feel like our guys have given up trying to be creative in favour of tending to the details and making the coach happy, which they aren't even doing well now either.

If this team lacks top end it’s on defence. IMO Lindholm is comparable to Bergeron or toews or kopitar. Those 3 have 6 cups. Not everyone needs to be a 100 point guy to be elite

Flames fans criticize the 2 stars up north for being selfish all offence players who don’t play both ends. We want our guys to be like them but really our top forwards may score less but are playing the game the right way. Our top line has been dominate despite having 2 holes on the top pp unit. Depth at forward is mainly at center is a huge issue but you could say no hedman makar josi type dman on this team is more the issue than Lindholm. He’s a superstar

[Classic_Sniper]

Short Term Problems:

- One line team
- Shallow at center ice
- Over reliance on goaltending
- 3 of the 4 lines incapable of consistently playing Darryl’s checking style
- Some of the defensive pairs have real struggled recently
- Team is slow and cannot play at the pace upper echelon teams play at
- Flames are an analytics darling, but in reality, cannot finish and cannot execute at a high level
- Teams adjusting to Flames, not catching teams off guard as much, so less quick starts
- Major cap crunch looming, which will likely limit the types of rental players management can go after



Long Term Problems:

- Shallow depth due to a rushed rebuild = not enough picks = not enough prospects
- Too many expensive UFAs limiting cap space
- Window to win likely closing
- Major cap crunch looming, so even if important players are re-signed, not a lot of cap space left to improve team drastically
- Gaudreau is a UFA in a few months, Tkachuk & Mangiapane each are 1 year from UFA, Kylington ready for a big raise as well

[Jason14h]

Originally Posted by Macho0978

People say we don’t have top end talent. Anderson is not a top pp dman. Maybe a 2nd unit pp dman at best. Monahan is done. Lindholm and Tkachuk have 10 pp points. Gaudreau has a whole 7 effing pp points this year. Insert Cale Makar or Victor Hedman or Roman Josi and another forward who isn’t a 4th liner on our first pp and you could easily see 5 to 10 more points on the pp for these guys. If Johnny had 49 points right now I bet we wouldn’t be saying we have no top end players

Lindholm might win the selke. Bostons first line is elite but Bergeron doesn’t get 100 points a year. Clearly Lindholm is still underrated because he’s that type of player.

No one said we have no top end talent . We don’t have enough

You literally proved the point saying if we had another top forward and a number one D.

There’s nothing wrong with JG and Lindy. We are just missing another superstar F and a number one D

And those are extremely difficult to get

[Macho0978]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

No one said we have no top end talent . We don’t have enough

You literally proved the point saying if we had another top forward and a number one D.

There’s nothing wrong with JG and Lindy. We are just missing another superstar F and a number one D

And those are extremely difficult to get

Our first line is as good as it gets. Some are saying Lindholm isn’t a true elite center. Maybe not you but some are saying he isn’t. Gaudreau and Tkachuk are top end wingers too

They don’t need another elite center just need a true 2nd line center

If they need top end it’s the dman that is missing. Even a top end pp dman

Mackinnon some say is the best in the league. I agree but he has Rantanen and Landeskog on his wing but also has Cale Makar. He’s elite too. Put Makar on our team and our first line all gets 90 points and Johnny gets 100

Who is this teams best dman? Tanev? I think it’s probably Kylington. He’s got potential but he’s right now not even anywhere near a guy like Hedman or Makar. Lindholm is behind mackinnon for sure but he’s in a 2nd tier group behind the best of the best. Our top dman are so far off the best of the best. All of them are quality players but not elite

[Harry Lime]

I would also add that I don't think that the team is icing their best lineup. I don't think that Valimaki is ready, but is close, and I do think that Mackey is ready. I also think that Phillips is better than Lewis/Pitlick, and Pelletier is in a Valimaki situation where his longterm development is probably best served by playing with Stockton.

Mackey in for Zadorov
Phillips in for Lewis/Pitlick

[calgarygringo]

As said a 1 line scoring team at best. We need 1 or 2 shooters that can score. Not having 40 or so shots in a game and get 1 goal stuff. Elite teams score we do not. Hard to find these guys but they always seem to find their way elsewhere not the Flames.

[Macho0978]

Originally Posted by Harry Lime

I would also add that I don't think that the team is icing their best lineup. I don't think that Valimaki is ready, but is close, and I do think that Mackey is ready. I also think that Phillips is better than Lewis/Pitlick, and Pelletier is in a Valimaki situation where his longterm development is probably best served by playing with Stockton.

Mackey in for Zadorov
Phillips in for Lewis/Pitlick

I agree and I still think if this team can figure out the first lines contracts that inserting better depth isn’t going to be that hard. Pelletier is better than Lewis but he’s probably better than Monahan too which is the problem

We can blame the 4th line for the losing of late but they are ok. It’s the 2nd line. This team has 1 depth scorer. Mangiapane. I’m not blaming him because he has no help but in his last 15 he has 3 goals and 1 assist. Mangiapane stop providing depth scoring and this team started to lose

Blame Lewis and pitlick sure but this is on Monahan backlund Coleman dube. Can’t blame mangiapane but he’s playing out there by himself

[GranteedEV]

1) Too many slower players (Tkachuk, Monahan, Andersson, Gudbranson, Zadorov, and all the geriatrics) without any elite speed players to offset that (think Larkin/MacKinnon/McDavid/Point/Barzal/Duclair/Byron level open ice speed. Dube can skate but isn't very shifty, and Gaudreau isn't elite speed just elite edges. Kylington is absurd but also plays a position with more responsibility and still seems to have a shorter leash compared to someone like prime EK)

2) No legit #1 Center who drives his own line through the middle, allowing Gaudreau's line to be the second line. No sidestepping that issue. Aho, Barkov, Point, Matthews etc all do that. McDavid is a no-brainer. MacKinnon and Kadri drive play with the puck better than anyone in the Flames organization. Lindholm for all his strengths is more of a weird combination of Backlund and Monahan than an actual 1C. And soon Jack Eichel will be in our division

[Matata]

Has the teams doctors received any flack for ruining Monahan? What other team has taken one of their best long term assets, played them hard while they can barely walk and playing like a shell of themselves, all for a middling team no one thought was going anywhere. Monahan should sue the team, they've essentially taken tens of millions of dollars from him by massively devaluing him before his contract expired.

[gvitaly]

Originally Posted by Matata

Has the teams doctors received any flack for ruining Monahan? What other team has taken one of their best long term assets, played them hard while they can barely walk and playing like a shell of themselves, all for a middling team no one thought was going anywhere. Monahan should sue the team, they've essentially taken tens of millions of dollars from him by massively devaluing him before his contract expired.

That’s a lot of speculation. We don’t know if playing made things worse.

I think it’s the continuous beating, combined with teams adjusting and lack of confidence on Monahan’s part.

The body is also a very complicated machine, and currently doctors can’t predict the way it will heal with 100% certainty.