What is the main problem with the on ice product?

[Fan69]

Once we’re past the management issues of the team where does the team stand?

To me the main issue has been Center ice depth.

I have been defending Monahan for some time but it seems apparent his best skills have seemed to slip. Couple that with the fact that Backs has never been a consistent point producer and his main prowess means he is in his end and you can see where I’m going.

Center depth is killing this team. Add that we may only have a bottom six and a probable middle maybe top six Center in the system does not bode well short or long term.

To my mind how different does this team look this year and the next couple of the team looked like this down the middle?

Lindholm
Mystery player x (Hertl, Horvat, just examples?)
Backlund
Mystery player x or our big Center from the farm?

To me that looks like a far more workable short and long term and would completely change the completion of the team.

I think Matty is gone this trade deadline.
I know many think that we need winger and I disagree both short and long term.

Pair Yeast mode with a Hertl And then have lindholm and Johnny and I think suddenly the team look is far better suited to match up against some of the overwhelming Center depth we play against. No! I don’t think we were in on Eichel for a moment, and gosh if we only had a Center like Bennett driving the second line, but that is misery past.

What is your opinion? Would changing the Center depth change the outlook for the team or is it destined to sputter out and die and we enter rebuild with aging expiring assets?

[Jason14h]

Top end talent

We just have less compared to almost all teams

So we have to play better systems, better special teams, and need better goaltending vs other teams with more all around talent

If any of those falter, we get into trouble

[MegaErtz]

The biggest problem as I see it is the inability to lure free agents to Calgary at a reasonable price. They just don't want to come play here. The few guys that we do get, we have to massively overpay, which just makes them worth much less when we do want to trade them, and stops us from adding good rentals near the deadline because we don't have the cap space.

[boogerz]

Overall forward depth is the big issue that's remaining. The past four seasons, the Flames have been relying on player pairings and spreading around talent to compensate for not having adequate full lines. For example:

Gaudreau-Monahan-[insert plug]
Tkachuk-Backlund-[insert plug]
Coleman-Backlund-[insert plug]
[insert plug]-Backlund-Frolik
[insert plug]-Backlund-Mangiapane
Lucic-Backlund-[insert plug]
Dube-Ryan-[insert plug]

Having two players carrying a line only works when one or more of those players is an elite talent (e.g. Johnny) or both players are a clear step better than the lines they're matching up against (e.g. the combined talent of Tkachuk-Backlund is enough to carry a second line) and it leaves zero room for error when things go awry (e.g. Gaudreau-Monahan starting failing when Monahan could no longer be a good triggerman).

Backlund and Coleman are fine as second liners, but they don't make for a threatening second line if you put a plug on RW (e.g. Pitlick) instead of a player that's just as good as Backlund and Coleman.

Mangiapane and Dube are fine as middle sixers, but they need another quality middle sixer to help carry the load and make the line a well-rounded threat.

Treliving finally hired a good coach. He finally signed a decent starting goaltender. Now he needs to stop signing depth players/"value signings" as a half-measure and sign another winger or two with enough talent to legitimately play in the top9 for a full season.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by MegaErtz

The biggest problem as I see it is the inability to lure free agents to Calgary at a reasonable price. They just don't want to come play here. The few guys that we do get, we have to massively overpay, which just makes them worth much less when we do want to trade them, and stops us from adding good rentals near the deadline because we don't have the cap space.

What free agents have gone anywhere at a reasonable price?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[N-E-B]

I tend to lean towards a lack of talent as well. Too often they heavily outplay and outwork teams, only to be tied or have a one goal lead out of it. It’s not too often they come out and bury teams in the first period.

They simply don’t have enough guys that can score goals.

[Parallex]

Lack of forward offense depth. We basically only have 1 line that can be counted on to produce any offense.

[1qqaaz]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

What free agents have gone anywhere at a reasonable price?


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I think the Schwartz and Granlund contracts signed this past summer were reasonable.

[dammage79]

Honestly, the absolute collapse of the center ice position. And the absolute reliance on LW as the most powerful position on the team. It's mind blowingly lopsided.

Not to mention productive skill in the bottom six.

I think defensemen are fine for the most part. A couple of interchangeable players and decent depth while we wait for Valimaki to catch back up.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

Top end talent

We just have less compared to almost all teams

So we have to play better systems, better special teams, and need better goaltending vs other teams with more all around talent

If any of those falter, we get into trouble

This. If you created a list of the top 50 players in the NHL right now, you'd probably have one from the Flames (Johnny).
If you went 100 deep you probably would have 2 or 3. (Johnny + Elias/Matthew)

That puts Calgary in a position where they are an average to below average team.

[shadowlord]

Under Peters/GG, this team had 2 effective forward lines in Gaudreau-Monahan-Lindholm and Tkachuk-Backlund-Frolik/Mangiapane. The criticism was that there was no depth score in the bottom-6.

At the moment, we only have one effective line Gaudreau-Lindholm-Tkachuk. Monahan and Backlund have disappeared for various reasons. Mangiapane has gone cold, so in recently, we don't have a 2nd line that is scoring at 2nd line rates.

Backlund and Mangiapane have had chemistry in the past, and Backlund has a history of boosting the scoring stats of his wingers (see the "Backlund effect"). Might be worthwhile to give Mangipane-Backlund-Coleman a sustained look to see if they can build chemistry.

That said, about a year before being hired, I remember Sutter saying that Backlund should be slotted as a highly effective third-line centre. We lack a 2C who can fill that void.

[neo45]

Our top line is among the best lines in the entire league this season. Outstanding offensively and defensively. They made it how long into the season without getting scored on 5v5?

It’s center depth. Dube isn’t one, Backlund is a pricey 3C and Monahan can’t even outplay other fourth lines at 5v5 at this point. It’s hurting us on the ice and taking up too much cap to be our weakness

Our secondary scoring is essentially Mangiapane and a sporadic Lucic five hole goal

[DeluxeMoustache]

The problem to me right now is the frequency, playing one game in 11 days

Looking forward to Tuesday, when the Panthers, who have averaged 6 goals per game in their last 9, roll in to town

That last 6-2 loss to Florida wasn’t an unusual Panthers score. It was typical

They are rolling and the Flames are rusty

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

The problem to me right now is the frequency, playing one game in 11 days

Looking forward to Tuesday, when the Panthers, who have averaged 6 goals per game in their last 9, roll in to town

That last 6-2 loss to Florida wasn’t an unusual Panthers score. It was typical

They are rolling and the Flames are rusty

Totally agree. The schedule has been so erratic lately. That southwest road trip was a meat grinder and would be for most teams, and I think they lost some mojo and confidence from it. If they could just get back to regular action, they could probably put it behind them. It doesn’t help that the next game is against Florida again though.

They really need a good long home stretch which they haven’t had yet this season.

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by Fan69

I have been defending Monahan for some time but it seems apparent his best skills have seemed to slip.

That’s like saying it seems apparent that the Pope is Catholic.

His skills haven’t seemed to slip, they have slipped. And they have for some time. Moving Johnny away from Monny is was has gotten Johnny going.

Now, no one can blame Monny. He’s been very game in trying to reinvent himself, I just don’t think his physical skills are there.

But I agree with your post, Calgary needs to find a way to replace the old Monny. It’s won’t be easy until Monny’s contract is done, as no one will take that contract without real value coming back.

[Harry Lime]

I think that this team needs to do something that is scary for management, and that is to rebuild on the fly.

Whenever a high end D+2 (approx) player comes available, do to whatever development problems on the selling team, I think that Calgary has to jump on it. Take those chances on a high pedigree.

Some of them are obvious. Filip Zadina is rumored to be available by Detroit media. They are a you team that needs leadership and have nearly no long term contracts. They have high end young Swedish players. Dangle them Backlund for Zadina.

The new York rangers have serious internal issues with the handling of Vitali Kravtsov. They recently lost Lias Anderson to a similar situation, and recieved a 2nd round pick at the draft for him. Calgary is heavy on LD prospects. Offer Porier and Florida's 2022 2nd for him.

All of the sudden the future RW depth becomes Coranto, Kravtsov, Zadina overnight. Dube moves to center where he is much more effective. Zadina steps in right away and is a natural passer for Monahan.

The problem IMO is lack of risk taking to move out of mediocrity.

[Fan69]

Originally Posted by The Cobra

That’s like saying it seems apparent that the Pope is Catholic.

His skills haven’t seemed to slip, they have slipped. And they have for some time. Moving Johnny away from Monny is was has gotten Johnny going.

Now, no one can blame Monny. He’s been very game in trying to reinvent himself, I just don’t think his physical skills are there.

But I agree with your post, Calgary needs to find a way to replace the old Monny. It’s won’t be easy until Monny’s contract is done, as no one will take that contract without real value coming back.

So the question becomes out of the bottom ten to fifteen teams which one is willing to look at a package of Matty, Mono, perhaps Valimaki if he is done with the organization and who do we target?

I listed Horvat though I don’t think he is available and division all that jazz. I am thinking a long term solution to the second line. But who??

[Kipper_3434]

Well it used to be goaltending, then it was coaching, before that we had no rws. Now we have coaching, goaltending, no natural rw's and no number #1 defencemen.....centre depth is the least of this teams problems IMO. I dont think theres anything wrong with how the team is doing this season, we are in a rut rn, i would rather have our worst results now.

[TheSquatch]

Center depth, and by corallary, forward depth (or talented forward depth - they have all kinds of mucker depth).

The Flames drafted a highly touted center. It didn't work out. That put all the pressure on Monahan. That didn't work out.

The "design" should have been 1C - high talent, large body, drafted player 2C-Monahan 3C - Backlund, and what that would have done is left other players out on the wing.

If Lindholm is working as a 1C that's great, but it's at the expensive of having a hole at RW.

So to me the total collapse of the center ice position has left this team in serious trouble. The blueprint to win is "play hard and play perfect, night after night". Uh oh. Elias is the Big Bad John, holding up the collapsing mine shaft at this point.

The team will do okay, might make the playoffs here, and hell, might even win a round, if they play the right team in the first round. But the idea that this team measures up well in terms of scoring talent against any other team is... well, we're gonna see it. It's not good.

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by boogerz

Overall forward depth is the big issue that's remaining. The past four seasons, the Flames have been relying on player pairings and spreading around talent to compensate for not having adequate full lines. For example:

Gaudreau-Monahan-[insert plug]
Tkachuk-Backlund-[insert plug]
Coleman-Backlund-[insert plug]
[insert plug]-Backlund-Frolik
[insert plug]-Backlund-Mangiapane
Lucic-Backlund-[insert plug]
Dube-Ryan-[insert plug]

Having two players carrying a line only works when one or more of those players is an elite talent (e.g. Johnny) or both players are a clear step better than the lines they're matching up against (e.g. the combined talent of Tkachuk-Backlund is enough to carry a second line) and it leaves zero room for error when things go awry (e.g. Gaudreau-Monahan starting failing when Monahan could no longer be a good triggerman).

Backlund and Coleman are fine as second liners, but they don't make for a threatening second line if you put a plug on RW (e.g. Pitlick) instead of a player that's just as good as Backlund and Coleman.

Mangiapane and Dube are fine as middle sixers, but they need another quality middle sixer to help carry the load and make the line a well-rounded threat.

Treliving finally hired a good coach. He finally signed a decent starting goaltender. Now he needs to stop signing depth players/"value signings" as a half-measure and sign another winger or two with enough talent to legitimately play in the top9 for a full season.

1) Lindholm has been a Flame for 4 season and has been a far better player than Backlund in each and every of those seasons and the gap is widening. You need to add Lindholm to the guys that belong on the top 6 and change Blacklund to [insert plug]

Gaudreau- Monahan-with plug Lindholm inserted was a top line in 2018-19 as is Tkachuk-Lindholm-Gaudreau.

2) Coleman has never been a fine 2nd liner. He has been a really good 3rd liner when he has really good 3rd liner linemates. The last contract he signed before the Flames was a 3rd line contract 3 x 1.8M, Just because the Flames are paying him top-6 money does not make him a 2nd line player.

The problem was that Backlund at 5.35 x 6 should have been able to fit in on a good team carrying top line and he just wasn't good enough to be on an top-line even for a short period.

Never Gaudreau-Backlund-Lindholm

or Tkachuk-Backlund-Gaudreau

He was never good enough to push his way ahead of an injured Monahan