[News] Pronman ranks top U-23 players

[Wastedyouth]

Corey Pronman does not have, nor has ever had, a clue about hockey and prospects.

I consistently amazes me how he has such a wide audience.

I guess Eklund does too, so anyone can just throw anything out there, as long as they are persistent enough.

Pronman reminds me of an Instagram influencer. He was one of the first to the table to do what he does, which is "aggregate the opinions of ALL of the scouts" he apparently talks to.

I have my doubts. I think he is a content creator. And hes effective at making people think he has a clue, while having no clue at all.

If I was to equate him to an old school poster here, it would have been MMF. All talk, no substance.

[TheScorpion]

Having Ruzicka ahead of Pelletier in any capacity is just laughable.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

When you look back at Pronman’s similar lists over time, how have they aged?

Like month old cheese in dirty sweat socks on a radiant heater. Not well.

[dammage79]

Wolf should be a top 5 goaltending prospect in the entire league. His numbers are tops.

Coronota needs more gp and a rhythm. I wouldn't be shocked if he signs this offseasason.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by djsFlames

Pronman is either just a tougher grader toward the Flames or hasn't watched enough of the the Flames prospects to appreciate guys like pelletier (who is full marks for his season) and consistently ranks their prospects below where they probably should be.

About as meaningful of that top 100 nhl skaters list that didn't include Johnny in the 100 or honorable mentions.

Nothing to see here.

What do you think is the bigger gap.
The gap between how much Flames fans pay attention to their prospects relative to other teams?
Or the gap between how much Pronman pays attention to other teams prospects relative to other teams?

I don't think your criticism has much validity because even if you think he doesn't watch the Flames prospects enough, he definitely knows more about other team's prospect than we do.

I think these lists style article don't help him. If you listen to his podcast he his views are far more nuanced and deeper than the lists suggest. And you get a sense of how much work he puts in (it's a lot).

Each to their own but I find people dismiss his views when they don't like them.

[Naitix]

nvm

[Naitix]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

Byfield, a very young player to be drafted in 2020, had 20 points in the AHL as an 18 year old and 1 point in 6 games in the NHL. This year in the AHL he has only played 8 games.

Your take is wrong, or at least isn't taking into consideration his age/where he played/how COVID has disrupted Jr./AHL hockey. To say he's been trash is just...a trash take.

I have seen Byfield play more than enough to see that there is nothing impressive about him

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Wastedyouth

Corey Pronman does not have, nor has ever had, a clue about hockey and prospects.

I consistently amazes me how he has such a wide audience.

I guess Eklund does too, so anyone can just throw anything out there, as long as they are persistent enough.

Pronman reminds me of an Instagram influencer. He was one of the first to the table to do what he does, which is "aggregate the opinions of ALL of the scouts" he apparently talks to.

I have my doubts. I think he is a content creator. And hes effective at making people think he has a clue, while having no clue at all.

If I was to equate him to an old school poster here, it would have been MMF. All talk, no substance.

Incorrect.
He attends a ton of games, watched these players a lot.
He is not an aggregator of other view points. His articles are his opinions.

He also is well respected in the scouting community.

[Erick Estrada]

Before everyone starts piling on Pronman, the reality is that despite ranking him 66th, he clearly likes the player.

Coronato’s first half hasn’t been amazing, playing on a deep Harvard forward group. Despite modest production he’s an exciting prospect. He’s a highly skilled and creative forward who can beat you with his puck skills, his shot, and can will his way into scoring chances. Coronato lacks ideal size, but his compete and good enough speed will make up for it to allow him to continue to score as he progresses levels.

I personally don't have any issue with the rankings as it's only one man's opinion and he watches these players more than I do.

[Monahammer]

I was just grumpy when I read it this morning, he actually has Wolf quite highly ranked, the 2nd best goalie and only a couple places overall back of Wallstedt for top goalie. Then the grouping of our other prospects, with Ruzicka standing out as a riser.

It just highlights that we don't have a very high end talent coming up the ranks. While our core guys are young, the contract status of Johnny and Tkachuk makes that a worry.

[TheIronMaiden]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Before everyone starts piling on Pronman, the reality is that despite ranking him 66th, he clearly likes the player.



I personally don't have any issue with the rankings as it's only one man's opinion and he watches these players more than I do.

same. this guy watches them and tells me what he thinks, it is no more and no less. I think that there is an implicate understanding that if a Journalist really was some prospect evaluation wizard, they would have a job in the NHL. Otherwise, it's someone giving you a little insight.

[Since1984]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

Having Ruzicka ahead of Pelletier in any capacity is just laughable.

A 6'4 Center that has played NHL games(8), that has scored in the NHL, and has very similar stats in the AHL to a 5'10 LW that is in his first professional season is not all that laughable. Ruzicka even started the AHL season with 10 goals in 13 games...Pelletier has 1 more goal in 15 more games.

He plays a prime position with a much bigger frame. I get that you watch a lot of the Heat but some of your player bias is questionable.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by Since1984

A 6'4 Center that has played NHL games(8), that has scored in the NHL, and has very similar stats in the AHL to a 5'10 LW that is in his first professional season is not all that laughable. Ruzicka even started the AHL season with 10 goals in 13 games...Pelletier has 1 more goal in 15 more games.

He plays a prime position with a much bigger frame. I get that you watch a lot of the Heat but some of your player bias is questionable.

Age needs to be considered though.

Pelletier has outperformed Ruzicka at every stage of his career when at the same age.

If Pronman was ranking this as a "As of this exact moment" then I can see having Ruzicka ahead of Pelletier, because as a player right now he might be better.

But Pronman says "This analysis is forward-looking, meaning these are the players I would want on my team for the rest of their career, not in a game tomorrow."

And based on these players trajectories, age, and overall career profiles it's a bit funny to have Ruzicka listed about Pelletier and even Zary based on that.

[Since1984]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

Age needs to be considered though.

Pelletier has outperformed Ruzicka at every stage of his career when at the same age.

If Pronman was ranking this as a "As of this exact moment" then I can see having Ruzicka ahead of Pelletier, because as a player right now he might be better.

But Pronman says "This analysis is forward-looking, meaning these are the players I would want on my team for the rest of their career, not in a game tomorrow."

And based on these players trajectories, age, and overall career profiles it's a bit funny to have Ruzicka listed about Pelletier and even Zary based on that.

I don't think so, IMO Ruzicka's size, skill and the game he plays translates better to the NHL. You can't teach size and the player plays a prime position.

I feel Ruzicka has a better chance at succeeding in the NHL than Jakob Pelletier does and it looks like Pronman agrees.

There are arguments for both players...I just don't see it as laughable.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Since1984

I don't think so, IMO Ruzicka's size, skill and the game he plays translates better to the NHL. You can't teach size and the player plays a prime position.

I just don't know what NHL people watch.

Palat - Point - Kucherov
Goodrow - Gourde - Coleman
Killorn - Cirelli - Stamkos

It's a lot more of a Pellettier league than a Ruzicka league.

[TheScorpion]

I am really skeptical of there being an NHL player beyond a fourth-liner there with Ruzicka. You can say he has size but he doesn't really do anything with it.

[Since1984]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

I just don't know what NHL people watch.

Palat (6') - Point - Kucherov
Goodrow(6'2) - Gourde - Coleman
Killorn(6'1) - Cirelli (6') - Stamkos (6'1)

It's a lot more of a Pellettier league than a Ruzicka league.

5 of those players are 6' or taller. 2 inches and an average of ~20 lbs heavier.

Yes Pelletier has time to put on weight but you also forgot to include the size of the D Tampa carries:

Hedman 6'6
Cernak 6'3
Sergachev 6'3
Rutta 6'3
McDonagh 6'1
Savard 6'1

Oh and they have the best goalie in the league.

Look at the size of the players on Carolina and Florida.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

I just don't know what NHL people watch.

Palat - Point - Kucherov
Goodrow - Gourde - Coleman
Killorn - Cirelli - Stamkos

It's a lot more of a Pellettier league than a Ruzicka league.

50 forwards that are 5'10 or shorter have played at least 10 games in the NHL this year. With the shortest being Alex Debrincat and Cole Caufiled listed at 5'7". (6 PPG players are 5'10" or shorter)

369 forwards are between 5'11 to 6'3"

40 forwards are 6'4" or taller. (One PPG player 6'4" or taller - Rantanen)

So there are more players, and specifically offensive producers that are Pelletiers size or smaller, than are Ruzicka's size or bigger.

I don't have the time to do the math right now but if I had to guess the average NHL forward would be about 6'0" tall, so not sure that being 5'10" is really that undersized in the big scheme of things.

Edit:

I found the bios on NHL website and ran some numbers.

598 forwards have taken a shift in the NHL this year. The average height of an NHL forward based on that is 6' 0.5" and 195 lbs. Pelletier is listed as 5'10" and 180 lbs on the AHL website. So he's only about 15 lbs undersized, which for a 20 year old isn't that surprising and would probably be normal for most 20 year olds.

This also would be a little inflated and I have a feeling if I was able to filter by guys who have played at least 150 minutes (regular forwards) then it would probably come down a little bit.

Originally Posted by Since1984

Look at the size of the players on Carolina and Florida.

Carolina is a great example...

Seth Jarvis is younger than Pelletier, is 5'10" and 170 pounds and he's playing a regular shift.

Trochek: 5'10"
Aho: 5'11"
Teravainen: 5'11"
Stepan: 6'0"
Fast: 6'0"
Martinook: 6'0"
Necas: 6'1"
Svechnikov: 6'2"
Kotkaniemi: 6'2
Niederreiter: 6'2"
Stall: 6'4"

Aho, Teravainen, and Trocheck are 3 of the top 4 scoring forwards on that team, all under 5'11".

[Wastedyouth]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Incorrect.
He attends a ton of games, watched these players a lot.
He is not an aggregator of other view points. His articles are his opinions.

He also is well respected in the scouting community.

Do you actually know this, or you are speculating, because he likes to say how many scouts he has talked to?

Again, he likes to say he attends games, watches games, talks to a lot of scouts.

He without a doubt has built himself a little niche. But he doesn't have any special insight into prospects. He built his clout on saying hes aggregated, in his own words, "all of the scouts I have talked to" into articles.

Those are his own words. He often said very early on that he builds his rankings off of other scouts opinions. To which he uses some mystical qualification system for his rankings. None of it was/is quantitative. It is/was his opinion of the opinions of other scouts.

Even his skill rating system is totally opinion based and has no qualitative structure to it. Just what he thinks.

He's definitely built himself a lot of reputation on very little. He didn't/doesn't play hockey. He didn't/doesn't do quantitative analysis.

It's his anecdotal opinions. It might as well be the opinion of anyone else on this board.

I will say that I stopped paying attention to him 5 years ago when i was clear he was far behind the curve on qualitative analysis on prospects and just continued to piggyback other peoples work. But maybe he has developed his "system".

I know I am piling on here, but last thing I will say is, if Pronman was as good at scouting, analyzing and reviewing prospects. Why hasn't he been picked up by any of the teams that are heavy into the kind of prospect analysis the market has developed? All the big names have been scooped up over the last 5 years. My guess is because he is just what he is, a content creator with little substance.

[DoubleK]

Originally Posted by Mass_nerder

12 points in 12 games as a freshman doesn't seem like mediocre production. I don't really have any context for understanding numbers in college hockey though. Maybe that is middling.

One game was 4 points in a 9-3 blowout.

8 points in 11 is absolutely mediocre.