The Territories: Canada's Shame

[Julio]

[Tyler]

The Territories suck. Plain and simple. Sure they're neat for a weekend or if you want to check out the Northern lights, but let's drop some real talk here.. there's a reason no one lives there.

So guess what, throughout human history, when places suck, people pack up their crap and move. You've got legs, cars, planes, hell dog sleds. Get moving and better yourselves and stop this woe is me nonsense.

If you're just going to sit on your ass and bitch and complain about how bad it is and do nothing but drink, do drugs and kill your neighbors, well then, I don't see how any of us thousands of miles away should give a damn. And for gods sake, don't call it 'Canada's Shame'. Canada has done nothing but bend over backwards and accomodate you and your ridicoulous choice to live in bumsville nowhere

[Barnes]

Originally Posted by Hemi-Cuda

Then why does the boreal forest just stop in Nunavut?



I'm not talking about places with plenty of vegetation already like Alaska and the western territories. There's a pretty stark difference when you compare cities like Yellowknife and Iqaluit

Nunavut's tree line is influenced by the Hudson Bay. It's colder than the southern portion of the NWT at similar latitudes.

[CaptainYooh]

Originally Posted by Tyler

...
So guess what, throughout human history, when places suck, people pack up their crap and move. You've got legs, cars, planes, hell dog sleds. Get moving and better yourselves and stop this woe is me nonsense.

If you're just going to sit on your ass and bitch and complain about how bad it is and do nothing but drink, do drugs and kill your neighbors, well then, I don't see how any of us thousands of miles away should give a damn. And for gods sake, don't call it 'Canada's Shame'. Canada has done nothing but bend over backwards and accomodate you and your ridicoulous choice to live in bumsville nowhere

About 25 years ago at some fancy dinner, I said it pretty much like this, although we were talking about several destitute native bands in Alberta. Man, did I get myself in trouble from some lady sitting at our table. She was a wife of some government official, never worked a day in her life. She gave me a lecture on how despicably un-Canadian this would be to not take care of the aboriginal communities and how they are an integral part of the Canadian fabric and how their culture of hunting and gathering must be respected and how we can all learn from them... I was young and she got me thinking about this quite a bit... Still think she was full of s..it, even after all of these years. Oh, good memories.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by Tyler

The Territories suck. Plain and simple. Sure they're neat for a weekend or if you want to check out the Northern lights, but let's drop some real talk here.. there's a reason no one lives there.

So guess what, throughout human history, when places suck, people pack up their crap and move. You've got legs, cars, planes, hell dog sleds. Get moving and better yourselves and stop this woe is me nonsense.

If you're just going to sit on your ass and bitch and complain about how bad it is and do nothing but drink, do drugs and kill your neighbors, well then, I don't see how any of us thousands of miles away should give a damn. And for gods sake, don't call it 'Canada's Shame'. Canada has done nothing but bend over backwards and accomodate you and your ridicoulous choice to live in bumsville nowhere

We should take all the kids and ship them off to the schools in the south, they could live there, then we can let the old people just die off.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

We should take all the kids and ship them off to the schools in the south, they could live there, then we can let the old people just die off.

We could call them residential schools and I'm sure we could find people that like children that would work there, I mean really really like children, what could go wrong?

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

We could call them residential schools and I'm sure we could find people that like children that would work there, I mean really really like children, what could go wrong?

Perhaps we could get the workers to take a vow of celibacy so they can really focus on their hands on work with the children.

[tvp2003]

Originally Posted by CaptainYooh

About 25 years ago at some fancy dinner, I said it pretty much like this, although we were talking about several destitute native bands in Alberta. Man, did I get myself in trouble from some lady sitting at our table. She was a wife of some government official, never worked a day in her life. She gave me a lecture on how despicably un-Canadian this would be to not take care of the aboriginal communities and how they are an integral part of the Canadian fabric and how their culture of hunting and gathering must be respected and how we can all learn from them... I was young and she got me thinking about this quite a bit... Still think she was full of s..it, even after all of these years. Oh, good memories.

The culture of hunting and gathering is being replaced by a culture of poverty, crime, and substance abuse. I can only imagine what things will be like in another 50 years...

[polak]

If they want to live a culture of nomadic hunting and gathering like the good 'ol days, nothing is stopping them. Go out there and hunt and gather. Hell, if they want it so bad we just close all public infrastructure. Problem solved.

[CliffFletcher]

There are two options:

Assimilation. That means young people move to cities and learn to work in the modern economy. Old people get relocated to public housing. Natives mix in with the wider culture and everyone succeeds or fails by how well they adapt.

Pros: Cost of supporting unfeasible lifestyles isn't carried by public purse. Toxic environments for raising children are hopefully replaced with something better. Lots of needed young workers for Canada's economy.

Cons: Politically untenable. It's what we tried to do for most of the 20th century and was regarded as a failure (and immoral) by many. Would remove the power base of native leadership and their allies in government. We can already see attempts at assimilation among urban natives and it's not pretty.

Self-Government: Let natives carve out their own distinct economies and cultures in their traditional territories. Natives deal with the Canadian government through their own leadership.

Pros: Politically attractive. Idealistic. Gives native leaders lots of power. Keeps families and communities together.

Cons: Economically unfeasible. Land and mineral rights don't provide enough of an economic base for growing populations. Fosters an unhealthy renters culture, where ownership and self-direction are neglected. Results in ghettos and limited opportunity. Expensive for the Canadian government and taxpayer.


Sadly, the Cons of Assimilation trump the other considerations. For the time being, it's just not politically feasible to suggest the most rational course of action.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by polak

If they want to live a culture of nomadic hunting and gathering like the good 'ol days, nothing is stopping them. Go out there and hunt and gather. Hell, if they want it so bad we just close all public infrastructure. Problem solved.

Why did they leave their "old" lifestyle? Was it be choice?


I will say that I don't know a tonne about the history of the north, or all the ins and outs of the problems, but if "we" (read the gov't) helped create these problems shouldn't "we" help solve these problems?

[CaptainYooh]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

Why did they leave their "old" lifestyle? Was it be choice?


I will say that I don't know a tonne about the history of the north, or all the ins and outs of the problems, but if "we" (read the gov't) helped create these problems shouldn't "we" help solve these problems?

Progress, history, civilization, circumstances – all the usual stuff. How long do you continue to download the responsibility for aboriginal well-being onto the general population? What is this collective "we" thing? Did you do something awful personally? I didn't. These communities feel completely helpless now not because of lack of government help but because of over-abundance of it. If the "special" assistance was eliminated 50 years ago, we would have a lot more assimilated, developed and self-confident first nations. I am 100% sure of it.

[undercoverbrother]

[QUOTE=CaptainYooh;5092544]Progress, history, civilization, circumstances – all the usual stuff. How long do you continue to download the responsibility for aboriginal well-being onto the general population?
[/QUOTE}

I don't know how long and I have said before that if the Canada and it's native peoples want to move forward there needs to be done in a spirit of reconciliation.

That being said, if the video is to be believed the north only changed apporx 50 years ago, that is still fresh in people's minds/experience.

What is this collective "we" thing?

Did you not see where I said "read the Gov't", as in The Governement of Canada which is an extension/representative of Canadians.

Did you do something awful personally? I didn't. These communities feel completely helpless now not because of lack of government help but because of over-abundance of it. If the "special" assistance was eliminated 50 years ago, we would have a lot more assimilated, developed and self-confident first nations. I am 100% sure of it.

I actually don't disagree with you that there needs to be an assimilation/acceptance of native people in Canada. However look at this thread:

If these two posts are reflective of the feelings of many Canadians I would suggest that there is not a willingness to assimilate the native peoples into modern day Canada.

I don't have the answer but you can't turn a society upsidedown and they blames them for all the problems that were caused when you turned them upside down.

[CaptainYooh]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

...

If these two posts are reflective of the feelings of many Canadians I would suggest that there is not a willingness to assimilate the native peoples into modern day Canada.

I don't have the answer but you can't turn a society upsidedown and they blames them for all the problems that were caused when you turned them upside down.

Yes, I would concur with the above. But the shoe is on the other foot as well. My wife works with aboriginal children and the sentiment towards Canada from them is unilaterally and overwhelmingly antagonistic, dismissive and derogatory. It's always "us" vs. "them". What's more, these teenagers seem to be enjoying the irony of Canada's aboriginal guilt feeling.

P.S. They do like Flames though.

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by tvp2003

The culture of hunting and gathering is being replaced by a culture of poverty, crime, and substance abuse. I can only imagine what things will be like in another 50 years...

A friend once said to me: "our ancient hunting and gathering instincts are still with us today, we hunt other people and gather their stuff".

I do agree that the proposition of propping up northern communities (or any sort of reserve) who have no economic output, and where the spiral into reliance and scarcity leads to social dysfunction and crime; needs to be challenged. Both the people of those communities and the government need to work together to get people into healthier areas where we can extend services to them and where they can contribute back. Tradition is beautiful when you are living off the land and according to traditional ways, but you can't expect the same level of services and modernity and modern vices to be able to be in harmony with that. The ancestors of the indigenous people's came across the land bridge into North America for economic reasons. They were following migrating herds of animals, leaving their native land to go somewhere else for better opportunities. Aboriginal communities today seriously need to evaluate the conditions of living in isolated enclaves and think about moving to better pastures for the benefit of everyone.

[afc wimbledon]

Most Res's are like tiny municipalities with incredibly complicated issues, unlike other municipalities though, they hire from within their tiny populations and generally only hire from a few politically dominant families within the band so you end up with someone who would struggle to get a volunteer gig at big brother running the social services department.

A couple of years ago I got a native kid referred to my foster home who's aunt was his social worker, it was utterly inappropriate, in the regular system if there is any connection to a kids family they would transfer the file to another office, but within the res' government there is a casual acceptance of the band management and workers being unprofessional and unable to really do the jobs they are elected or hired for.

[Harry Lime]

I can't find a written document of the conversation, which is irritating me, but I'll share the gist of what I heard on the CBC a couple of years ago. I can't help with specifics at the moment, but the general idea of the discussion should be about the same.

What they were talking about was the centralization of the Northern people into regional towns, while abandoning the villages that were deemed completely unsustainable. By having everyone together in a place that was connected to the rest of the country, or had some kind of economic value, it was thought that they could retain the wanted anonymity in Native government while becoming less of a burden on country and giving themselves more access to amenities.

Eventually it was determined that the attachment to the land, and the historical animosity between different nations (leading to one group holding sway over another) was enough that there wasn't enough interest in leaving or creating a larger community.

I'm not sure how bad things need to get before this goes back on the table. I do know that if it does it needs to come from inside the effected communities and not as a government suggestion.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

Most Res's are like tiny municipalities with incredibly complicated issues, unlike other municipalities though, they hire from within their tiny populations and generally only hire from a few politically dominant families within the band so you end up with someone who would struggle to get a volunteer gig at big brother running the social services department.

A couple of years ago I got a native kid referred to my foster home who's aunt was his social worker, it was utterly inappropriate, in the regular system if there is any connection to a kids family they would transfer the file to another office, but within the res' government there is a casual acceptance of the band management and workers being unprofessional and unable to really do the jobs they are elected or hired for.

It's more than just acceptance. Hiring your family for jobs they're unqualified for is expected, and considered perfectly legitimate. When I worked at a newspaper in the NWT I questioned why an otherwise unqualified sibling of the MLA was awarded a high position in the government. I was told to drop the issue, and that it was a 'southern' (aka White) way of looking at things. Whenever there's an election most of the band staff is let go and replaced with family, and half-trained people are replaced with completely untrained people. That's just the way it works.

[btimbit]

When I was in Inuvik it felt like I was on a reserve. Except at least on a reserve they have their own leadership, etc, up there it was like a reserve (however crooked and unqualified) except it was ran and policed by white people from down south.

You can imagine how that doesn't really work.

[Azure]

This isn't really a 'reserve' we are talking about. There are lots of those in 'southern' Canada that have massive problems. We are talking about an even bigger issue.

These people are simply too far north to be able to really help them, and IMO if they insist on staying there and living their 'lifestyle', I would say they need to do it without constant government support.