Official (Alberta) Oil Discussion Thread

[Snuffleupagus]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

BTW and maybe because this news pisses me off, but even though I believe that the F-35 is the far superior fighter and will offer better bang for the buck, I'd be all for cancelling any thought of purchasing the F-35 in exchange for buying some nice SU-57 Felons :P

Why?

[Rutuu]

Sorry to see the pipeline cancelled. It has been a bit of a trend in the US for other pipelines as well this year. A number of natural gas pipelines on the east coast were blocked, as well as the pipeline in the Dakotas that was in operation.

[Red]

So for those that dont know a lot about these projects.

Why did Trump not build it? He approved it after all.
Was it just a ceremonial approval while the matter was up to the local governments anyways?
Someone mentioned Montana objected. Any others? Is it just like what we have seen here, where other provinces put up fights?

And why did Harper not build anything like that during his 10 year tenure? He was the PM when both the KXL and the East Pipeline were proposed.

[calgarygeologist]

Originally Posted by Locke

I mostly agree with you up to a point and that point is the bolded.

I dont know how you could even suggest that frankly. Considering that one of the main reasons we need this kind of policy and structure is because the Federal structure has failed spectacularly. I mean, we're talking about staggering incompetence and stupidity on an almost unprecedented scale.

What would be the incentive to handing those clowns the keys?

They're the Lion's share of the reason we're in this mess to begin with.

I believe that certain aspects of the industry in terms of a national strategy need to be nationalized in order for certain projects to be done. I don't want to eliminate private investment altogether but private investment is generally risk averse and some critical projects are heavily capital intensive and have negative ROI that the government could otherwise absorb. Things like refineries could benefit from national interest. I think that a big part of the development of the oil sands in Alberta in the early days was because of the involvement of Petro-Can. Without that nationalized aspect who knows what that project would have looked like over time.

[Fuzz]

Kenney just put out a statement:


https://www.alberta.ca/release.cfm?x...A703A5B0C92748

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Snuffleupagus

Why?

You did see the :P at the end of that.



But at the same time, there needs to be a response to the Americans in terms of retaliation for this move by the Americans, we can't just sit around and chew our fingernails and be weaksauce.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Kenney just put out a statement:


https://www.alberta.ca/release.cfm?x...A703A5B0C92748

Yeah, read it last night, I've become less and less a fan of Kenney over the years. He's now lost a ton of money on this investment, he's completely mishandled the pandemic.



I doubt that I'll vote for the UCP in the next election, nor will I vote for the NDP, especially with Rachel literally doing fist pumps over this news and her record as the premiere last time. It looks like I'm sitting out another election.


Meanwhile I'm watching Singh also fist pump the cancellation and now pushing for the shut down of TMX.



Politicians in this country can all go F themselves, our system of democracy is massively stocked with idiots, crooks and incompetents.

[Fuzz]

I just looked through Notley's twitter, I don't see any fist pumps. She's asking legitimate questions as to why Kenney risked so much fo our tax dollars on this. It actually sounds like she is concerned for Alberta, not scoring twitter points. It makes me want to vote for her more, not less.

[Red]

https://twitter.com/user/status/1350975738934145027

Haters gonna hate...

She is, right or wrongly insinuating that Kenney didn't do a good job lobbying for the KXL.

[Slava]

The truth is this is a good example of why governments shouldn't be choosing winners or losers. I'm not a big fan of governments putting money into businesses, and I think that it's a questionable idea in the first place.

I do understand that this is a major project that we've been trying to get built for over a decade now, so you can see why Kenney and the province felt that something had to be done here. When he signed the deal of course, the President was onside and it wasn't until the new regime where we ran into this issue.

[Macman]

I believe the Keystone XL pipeline is okay under Canada's green initiative so hopefully Trudeau will stick up for it and speak out about getting it approved.
This is why we need to build our own infrastructure/pipelines to our coasts and get our own markets without relying so much on the US.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Slava

The truth is this is a good example of why governments shouldn't be choosing winners or losers. I'm not a big fan of governments putting money into businesses, and I think that it's a questionable idea in the first place.

I do understand that this is a major project that we've been trying to get built for over a decade now, so you can see why Kenney and the province felt that something had to be done here. When he signed the deal of course, the President was onside and it wasn't until the new regime where we ran into this issue.

But anyone could see there was a huge risk here. It was 50/50 at best, of Trump getting re-elected. How can you gamble that much money? Have you ever thrown $5 billion on red?

[RichieRich]

Originally Posted by Bunk

It seems as though a lot of the world feels about oil the way a lot of Albertans feel about coal mining on the Eastern Slopes.

I'm going to disagree about your comment re: world oil. What we hear in the media narrative is heavily biased w.r.t. fossil fuels. Yes, certainly there is a lot of focus on developing other means of energy however that at present represents but a small fraction of what hydrocarbons provide to the world. The evidence that fossil fuels are not dead rests in the huge developments and expansions throughout NOT-North America. The BILLIONS that the Russians are spending, the BILLIONS that the Chinese, etc etc... So yes there will be a slow shift, but it's certainly not going to shift radically over a couple years.

What really pains me is that fossil fuels are being artificially penalized economically and otherwise (shaming), and some non-fossil fuels are being heavily propped up (economically, socially). Is this truly how a democratic and properly functioning capitalist society is supposed to work?

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Slava

The truth is this is a good example of why governments shouldn't be choosing winners or losers. I'm not a big fan of governments putting money into businesses, and I think that it's a questionable idea in the first place.

I do understand that this is a major project that we've been trying to get built for over a decade now, so you can see why Kenney and the province felt that something had to be done here. When he signed the deal of course, the President was onside and it wasn't until the new regime where we ran into this issue.

I agree, governments shouldn't be in business, they're just completely incompetent about it.



Which means that the government should get out of subsidizing the Green Industries as well. As well as things like Casinos,Governments right now are picking winners and losers at a wicked pace, ie Casinos over airlines. Green businesses over Oil and Gas.



Kenney bobbled the ball here badly, he should have known what Biden would do based on the track record of the democrats under Obama and the Keystone.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Macman

I believe the Keystone XL pipeline is okay under Canada's green initiative so hopefully Trudeau will stick up for it and speak out about getting it approved.
This is why we need to build our own infrastructure/pipelines to our coasts and get our own markets without relying so much on the US.

Its going to be dead. The lawsuits that will be filed won't be about restarting construction, it will be about cost recovery.



But anyone that doesn't think that Biden is going to bump up US Oil production domestically to take advantage of the increase in demand world wide while pushing for energy independence is fooling themselves. I'd be impressed if Biden's shut down orders tomorrow included telling California to shut down their disgusting oil fields and turning off off shore oil production.

[Fuzz]

I get supporting casinos, that's basically instant ROI. Straight back to the government.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

I agree, governments shouldn't be in business, they're just completely incompetent about it.



Which means that the government should get out of subsidizing the Green Industries as well. As well as things like Casinos,Governments right now are picking winners and losers at a wicked pace, ie Casinos over airlines. Green businesses over Oil and Gas.



Kenney bobbled the ball here badly, he should have known what Biden would do based on the track record of the democrats under Obama and the Keystone.

Agreed. I can understand blanket subsidies or things like that, but picking individual companies or actually being in business is where I think it goes too far.

[CaptainCrunch]

I'm all for government grants for startups, especially tech startups. But that's where it ends for me.

[DiracSpike]

We’re talking like it’s done for good, but really the only thing this guarantees is that it won’t be in service in 2023. The same bureaucratic and legal largess that kept it from getting started until 3 years after trump approved it will cut the other way now. Stuff is already in the ground, including the cross border piece. Back into limbo we go, but what’s another few years in decades long fight?

[Fuzz]

What about movie and TV tax credits? They return far more than what it gives up, with very little risk. I think there are smart ways to do these sorts of things, and it depends on the industry.

The problem with the pipeline is that he invested our dollars, and risked more through a loan guarantee for a big gamble. That's a lot different than tax credits.