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Old 07-22-2019, 01:42 PM   #521
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The Hawks received Saad for Panarin
Of courses the Hawks got Panarin for nothing and picked up Saad originally with the Flames 2nd round pick.
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Old 07-22-2019, 01:48 PM   #522
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^I disagree.
Too much of that is on ice performance
My primary evaluation is looking at the state of the franchise, across all assets and how those assets are used.
results on the ice are important too but that's on the coach and players to deliver to that more than the GM.

I never understood this argument. GM is the one deciding who the players are and who the coach is. His biggest job is to make sure the pieces fit together or otherwise it's just armchair GMing on paper.
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Old 07-22-2019, 02:47 PM   #523
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Ryan Lambert says Treliving should be fired for this trade. Makes me like the deal even more.
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Old 07-22-2019, 02:54 PM   #524
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Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina View Post
^I disagree.
Too much of that is on ice performance
My primary evaluation is looking at the state of the franchise, across all assets and how those assets are used.
results on the ice are important too but that's on the coach and players to deliver to that more than the GM.
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I never understood this argument. GM is the one deciding who the players are and who the coach is. His biggest job is to make sure the pieces fit together or otherwise it's just armchair GMing on paper.
Well, if nothing in a player's history says he won't be a fit and then he isn't that can't be on the GM.

IMO Jiri has a good take on it. I would also say that there's a difference to me between a rational strategy which doesn't pan out (let's say Neal), or just a massive f-up (like screwing up on a CBA issue which costs you bargaining position, money or the player entirely). The latter could be an event based firing IMO. The former is just a move that didn't work out. It's the difference between me as a lawyer choosing a bad court room strategy and me as a lawyer missing a fundamental deadline and the case is punted.

Now, a GM with a poor strategy will, over time, lose his job because of results, cap mismanagement, bad team structure etc. But one trade will never do it.
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Old 07-22-2019, 02:56 PM   #525
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Ryan Lambert says Treliving should be fired for this trade. Makes me like the deal even more.
Where is this?
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How does the number of playoff games the Bruins won *this last season* have anything to do with their number of draft picks in the last three calendar years?
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Old 07-22-2019, 03:12 PM   #526
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Where is this?
https://sports.yahoo.com/calgary-fla...123150523.html
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Old 07-22-2019, 03:12 PM   #527
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Where is this?
https://edmontonjournal.com/sports/h...nhl-pundit/amp

The Staples slant on the Lambert piece
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Old 07-22-2019, 11:57 PM   #528
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I believe Treliving deserves some heat over the Neal signing which is different to say he should be fired for it. It failed spectacularly and I’m not convinced it was based on some sound, meticulously crafted strategy. Neal was a one dimensional player and before the signing, seems pretty clear the only fit was going to be on the top line. Peters had other ideas. Neal of course shows up with zero game and effort which is all in him, but there is nothing in his history suggesting he was a “do anything for the team” kind of guy. So once the first line thing didn’t work out, he became the square peg in the round hole.

To suggest that Treliving should not have been able to foresee any downsides to this signing is being unnecessarily forgiving. Neal’s age, demeanor, history of not sticking with one club were all known.

Neal’s play is on him, pure and simple. But the GM puts together the team and he took a risk with Neal that didn’t work out. That’s on him. He’s still the GM so you hope like any good organization they have done a thorough post mortem of what went wrong instead of avoiding responsibility. That was the biggest free agent signing in his tenure and should have been thoroughly vetted and researched.

As for this trade, it’s not that big of a deal IMO. It could work out a little bit in the Flames favor, which I consider the more likely scenario. But if for some reason the Oilers get the player Tre thought he signed 12 months ago, then a 3rd round pick will seem rather insufficient.
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Old 07-23-2019, 12:08 AM   #529
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I believe Treliving deserves some heat over the Neal signing which is different to say he should be fired for it. It failed spectacularly and I’m not convinced it was based on some sound, meticulously crafted strategy. Neal was a one dimensional player and before the signing, seems pretty clear the only fit was going to be on the top line. Peters had other ideas. Neal of course shows up with zero game and effort which is all in him, but there is nothing in his history suggesting he was a “do anything for the team” kind of guy. So once the first line thing didn’t work out, he became the square peg in the round hole.

To suggest that Treliving should not have been able to foresee any downsides to this signing is being unnecessarily forgiving. Neal’s age, demeanor, history of not sticking with one club were all known.

Neal’s play is on him, pure and simple. But the GM puts together the team and he took a risk with Neal that didn’t work out. That’s on him. He’s still the GM so you hope like any good organization they have done a thorough post mortem of what went wrong instead of avoiding responsibility. That was the biggest free agent signing in his tenure and should have been thoroughly vetted and researched.

As for this trade, it’s not that big of a deal IMO. It could work out a little bit in the Flames favor, which I consider the more likely scenario. But if for some reason the Oilers get the player Tre thought he signed 12 months ago, then a 3rd round pick will seem rather insufficient.
Fair opinion on the whole, and generally agree.

One thought. Maybe Tre was willing to give a bit of term, but at least withheld the NTC / NMC that gives a player control.

And in his defense, most teams have 2 top lines, and you would think a perennial 20 goal scorer, with many teams, situations, and linemates, must be able to find a way to be at least somewhat productive. You can see how the team has a lot of options and conceivably expect something to work.

But he was awful. We agree his play is on him. But as a GM, you can’t reasonably foresee the OT game 4 basic lack of effort from a guy who has been to the finals two years in a row. That’s on the player
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Old 07-23-2019, 11:22 AM   #530
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I heard Tree's interview with Boomer this morning. Two things I noticed:
1) He's tired of defending the Lucic deal
2) He's tired
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Old 07-23-2019, 11:24 AM   #531
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I heard Tree's interview with Boomer this morning. Two things I noticed:
1) He's tired of defending the Lucic deal
2) He's tired
Yeah you could tell he's had a rough summer. Heck probably been rough going back to the trade deadline.

Didn't seem in the mood to joke much like he normally does in that spot with Boomer.
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Old 07-24-2019, 08:53 AM   #532
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I am not sure if this is thread worthy so I will put in in here.

Is this the year the yo-yo stops under Treliving?

His first season 14/15 we see a 20pt improvement and make the playoffs 97pts and finish 3rd in the pacific
His second season we finish 26th in the league with a 20pt drop off back to 77pts
His third season we bounce back make the playoffs with 94pts and finish with the first wildcard
His 4th season we miss the playoffs with a 10pt drop off to 84
His 5th season we finish 1st in the west and 2nd in the league with 107pts

I could see this team taking a small step back but expectations they are a contender and a sure playoff team. It has been very up/down since this team started the rebuild.
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Old 07-24-2019, 09:20 AM   #533
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Originally Posted by Vinny01 View Post
I am not sure if this is thread worthy so I will put in in here.

Is this the year the yo-yo stops under Treliving?

His first season 14/15 we see a 20pt improvement and make the playoffs 97pts and finish 3rd in the pacific
His second season we finish 26th in the league with a 20pt drop off back to 77pts
His third season we bounce back make the playoffs with 94pts and finish with the first wildcard
His 4th season we miss the playoffs with a 10pt drop off to 84
His 5th season we finish 1st in the west and 2nd in the league with 107pts

I could see this team taking a small step back but expectations they are a contender and a sure playoff team. It has been very up/down since this team started the rebuild.
I think the team falls back some. I never believed that Lindholm, Tkachuk and Monahan were really point per game level offensive players and feared that when they dropped off the team would suffer. That's kind of what happened.

I still don't think they are at that high of a level, so unless some other players step up and provide more depth then I don't think this team is 105-110 point team.

However, another way they could remain that successful would be for the goaltending to improve compared to last year. It's almost miraculous they had 107 points despite the level of play they received from Smith in the 1st 2/3 of the season. If goaltending improves, they could remain a contender for the division even if the scoring takes a step back.
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Old 07-24-2019, 09:22 AM   #534
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Originally Posted by Vinny01 View Post
I am not sure if this is thread worthy so I will put in in here.

Is this the year the yo-yo stops under Treliving?

His first season 14/15 we see a 20pt improvement and make the playoffs 97pts and finish 3rd in the pacific
His second season we finish 26th in the league with a 20pt drop off back to 77pts
His third season we bounce back make the playoffs with 94pts and finish with the first wildcard
His 4th season we miss the playoffs with a 10pt drop off to 84
His 5th season we finish 1st in the west and 2nd in the league with 107pts

I could see this team taking a small step back but expectations they are a contender and a sure playoff team. It has been very up/down since this team started the rebuild.
I agree- I don't think we finish first in the west again, but we will be a playoff team for sure. Treliving has done a good job, but it has to be frustrating knowing the team needs improvement in areas, but there just isn't the right pieces available.

The fact he went hard after Kadri gives me hope that he understands the flaws of the team. We need another top 6 center to help shoulder the load between Monahan and Backlund.
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Old 07-24-2019, 09:42 AM   #535
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I agree- I don't think we finish first in the west again, but we will be a playoff team for sure. Treliving has done a good job, but it has to be frustrating knowing the team needs improvement in areas, but there just isn't the right pieces available.

The fact he went hard after Kadri gives me hope that he understands the flaws of the team. We need another top 6 center to help shoulder the load between Monahan and Backlund.
Also the fact that he went after Brouwer and Neal says he understands a flaw of the team (but just didn't get the right person two times in a row).
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Old 07-24-2019, 09:56 AM   #536
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It's pretty fair as he notes that the odds of Neal rebounding isn't great so it's not like he's on the James Neal bandwagon and he's simply stating what a lot of Flames fans have tried to ignore is that Lucic is really, really, really bad. I don't agree that it's fireable but I do agree with his title in that it's inexplicable.
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Old 07-24-2019, 10:03 AM   #537
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Originally Posted by Vinny01 View Post
I am not sure if this is thread worthy so I will put in in here.

Is this the year the yo-yo stops under Treliving?

His first season 14/15 we see a 20pt improvement and make the playoffs 97pts and finish 3rd in the pacific
His second season we finish 26th in the league with a 20pt drop off back to 77pts
His third season we bounce back make the playoffs with 94pts and finish with the first wildcard
His 4th season we miss the playoffs with a 10pt drop off to 84
His 5th season we finish 1st in the west and 2nd in the league with 107pts

I could see this team taking a small step back but expectations they are a contender and a sure playoff team. It has been very up/down since this team started the rebuild.
I've been thinking about this also. I absolutely believe there will be regression but I would expect them to be in the wildcard hunt at worst unless the goaltending is an outright disaster. Really since the regular season ended it's been it's been difficult times for the organization from the playoffs to not getting a Brodie deal done, to acquiring Lucic, etc. That is all stuff they can put behind them when the regular season starts and the main questions will be goaltending and what versions of Monahan, Lindholm, and Gaudreau is the norm.
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Old 07-24-2019, 10:12 AM   #538
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I like in his around the league piece he mocks the old “best shape of his life” storyline/cliche. I swear there is like a playbook of what to say after a sub par season, and this best shape of my life is at the top of the list. I hope there’s not a player on the Flames that doesn’t come into camp in the best shape of their life.
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Old 07-24-2019, 10:17 AM   #539
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I like in his around the league piece he mocks the old “best shape of his life” storyline/cliche. I swear there is like a playbook of what to say after a sub par season, and this best shape of my life is at the top of the list. I hope there’s not a player on the Flames that doesn’t come into camp in the best shape of their life.
Good point.

“Yeah I know you’re paying me $6mil to perform at the top level athletically this year, but I decided to show up in medium shape”.
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Old 07-24-2019, 10:44 AM   #540
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It's pretty fair as he notes that the odds of Neal rebounding isn't great so it's not like he's on the James Neal bandwagon and he's simply stating what a lot of Flames fans have tried to ignore is that Lucic is really, really, really bad. I don't agree that it's fireable but I do agree with his title in that it's inexplicable.

It's inexplicable when you sit there with the train of thought that buying him out was even an option to begin with. It's easy for a man sitting behind a keyboard typing a garbage article to say when he's not on hook to pay a player millions upon millions of dollars for 8 seasons not to play for your organization.

Also according to Corsica Lucic's WAR over the past two seasons was +0.21 (fourth best behind the big three in Edmonton) not a -0.8 like he claims. Neal had a WAR of -0.36 last season.. Which was by far the worst of any Flames regular.. So according to those numbers the entire premise of his article was flat out false. Even if you uses other sources (that provide varying results) Neal is consistently and considerably worse than Lucic statistically based on last year

----



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Yup, Lucic “makes everyone out there taller,” but he also makes them slower, less likely to score, and more likely to be scored on. All for just $5.25 million for the next four seasons? What a deal.

Also how can you possibly end the article that way? Replace Lucic with Neal in that statement, remove the "makes everyone out there taller" remark, and change the 5.25M for the next four seasons to 6.5M and the same holds true for the Oilers.. What a deal indeed.
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