debate topic of the week - states of emergency and individual human rights

[_Q_]

Originally Posted by Slava

I'll admit that the "philosophy" surrounding vaccine passports is a little troubling to me. I don't like the idea that you need to present your "papers" in order to do things or go certain places. I also find it worrisome that today it's being fully vaccinated that you need to prove, and maybe next year it will be proving that you've had 2-3 boosters or whatever. I don't think that's far-fetched and that's no exactly comforting.

At the same time, I'm fully vaccinated and totally fine with the passport to encourage others to follow that protocol. So, I guess I'm somewhat hypocritical and maybe my position isn't as set as I would think.

Or in the same vein, the vaccine passport becomes a general health passport.

One day that same app might be upgraded to allow certain venues to deny you access if you don't have the flu shot. Or maybe you wont be allowed to enter certain venues if you're immunocompromised, or if you're HIV positive, or if you have have a heart condition.

[flamesfever]

As much as I dislike the decision of the minority to refuse to be vaccinated, and the repercussions thereto, I still feel that the right to do so should be preserved...with exceptions eg hospital and nursing home staff, etc.

Eventually we will reach herd immunity, as the restrictions, and further education of the minority convince them to get vaccinated, and the few that are left won't matter.

[Makarov]

Originally Posted by _Q_

Or in the same vein, the vaccine passport becomes a general health passport.

One day that same app might be upgraded to allow certain venues to deny you access if you don't have the flu shot. Or maybe you wont be allowed to enter certain venues if you're immunocompromised, or if you're HIV positive, or if you have have a heart condition.

Why would a venue do that? Also, if such refusals were arbitrary or unjustified, doesn't every province have a Human Rights Code which prohibits this kind of discrimination?

I just don't see how, at this point, there is a credible risk of any of these slippery slope scenarios.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by flamesfever

As much as I dislike the decision of the minority to refuse to be vaccinated, and the repercussions thereto, I still feel that the right to do so should be preserved...with exceptions eg hospital and nursing home staff, etc.

Eventually we will reach herd immunity, and the minority won't matter.

And what about in the meantime, when the rights of other Albertans are infringed upon, like being able to use the healthcare system they are paying for? We just get to sit around getting killed by survivable diseases and injuries so others can have the right to make poor decisions that negatively impact others?

Rights aren't absolute. Our rights are limited at all times. You can't just walk out into a street and fire a gun in the air randomly. It's always a trade-off. In the case of COVID, the trade off is reasonable, because the alternative is disaster.

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by flamesfever

As much as I dislike the decision of the minority to refuse to be vaccinated, and the repercussions thereto, I still feel that the right to do so should be preserved...with exceptions eg hospital and nursing home staff, etc.

No one has lost the right to remain unvaccinated.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by _Q_

What's that saying? If you're willing to give up your rights during an emergency, then the government will always create an emergency to take away your rights.

David Suzuki said, in reference to the WW2 internment of Japanese-Canadians, that the true measure of a state’s values are how it behaves in a crisis. It’s easy to have freedoms and tolerance when things are going well. The real test is if they’re still protected when things aren’t going well.

[NuclearFart]

Originally Posted by flamesfever

As much as I dislike the decision of the minority to refuse to be vaccinated, and the repercussions thereto, I still feel that the right to do so should be preserved...with exceptions eg hospital and nursing home staff, etc.

Eventually we will reach herd immunity, as the restrictions, and further education of the minority convince them to get vaccinated, and the few that are left won't matter.

This speaks to my point about rights vs privileges.

The antivaxxers right to refuse vaccination has always been preserved. Its their privileges that might get limited or revoked as a consequence.

[_Q_]

Originally Posted by Makarov

Why would a venue do that? Also, if such refusals were arbitrary or unjustified, doesn't every province have a Human Rights Code which prohibits this kind of discrimination?

I just don't see how, at this point, there is a credible risk of any of these slippery slope scenarios.

Liability purposes, feeling of moral obligation, not wanting to be chastised on social media? Why are venues attempting to use proof of covid vaccination to limit access today?

Imagine an immunocompromised individual catches the flu at a restaurant and dies of pneumonia. Later it's confirmed that the restaurant didn't check the flu shot records of all the patrons. I'm not sure if there would be legal ramifications, but the social media #### storm would surely have a negative impact on the business.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Makarov

Why would a venue do that? Also, if such refusals were arbitrary or unjustified, doesn't every province have a Human Rights Code which prohibits this kind of discrimination?

I just don't see how, at this point, there is a credible risk of any of these slippery slope scenarios.

The same arguments for covid passports would apply to flu vaccine passports. Health care systems already buckle under the strain of bad flu seasons. The situation will only get worse as the population ages and a likely endemic covid is added to the mix.

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by _Q_

What's that saying? If you're willing to give up your rights during an emergency, then the government will always create an emergency to take away your rights.

While I think, unfortunately, some level of government control is inevitable during an emergency, I think we need to, as a society, more clearly define an emergency and the emergency needs to be short lived. With covid, for example, there are no metrics on when all this will end and it feels as though the goalposts keep shifting. I think it's highly problematic and sets a dangerous precident.

This is more of a communication issue than a dangerous slippery slope. Most governments do not want to impose these restrictions and wouldn't if they didn't feel they had to. Locking down people for no reason isn't exactly the path to political success.

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

The same arguments for covid passports would apply to flu vaccine passports. Health care systems already buckle under the strain of bad flu seasons. The situation will only get worse as the population ages and a likely endemic covid is added to the mix.

The majority of the population is in favour of vaccine mandates.

Vaccines are popular. You'll have the same people out there complaining about vaccine mandate for a flu vaccine as you have for the covid vaccine now if there was a real risk of the hospitals being over-run.

[flamesfever]

I think the larger than normal resistance to vaccination is caused by the following:

1. the misinformation on social media

2. the speed at which the vaccine was developed

3. the non familiarity, by the majority of the populace, with the mRNA technology

4. the resistance to vaccinations in general by some

The first 3 are relatively new to society, and I think society is struggling to adapt to the rapid changes brought by technology

I believe further education, public backlash, and restrictions should help get us to herd immunity

[_Q_]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

This is more of a communication issue than a dangerous slippery slope. Most governments do not want to impose these restrictions and wouldn't if they didn't feel they had to. Locking down people for no reason isn't exactly the path to political success.

I completely agree with you and I think a big part of it is the new territory we're in. The goalposts keep shifting, because we just don't know what metric we're looking for to signal an end to the restrictions.

Correct or not, governments are being overly cautious, and society is in general agreement - particularly in Canada.

[Makarov]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

The same arguments for covid passports would apply to flu vaccine passports. Health care systems already buckle under the strain of bad flu seasons. The situation will only get worse as the population ages and a likely endemic covid is added to the mix.

A restaurant refusing entry to anyone who can't prove flu vaccination is a little different, as it wouldn't even engage a Human Rights Code-protected ground (in most cases). That wouldn't really be any different then the old "no shoes, no shirt, no service" policy. That is entirely the restaurant owner's prerogative.

Or are some people advocating for legislation that would REQUIRE a business to provide service to unvaccinated people?

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by _Q_

I completely agree with you and I think a big part of it is the new territory we're in. The goalposts keep shifting, because we just don't know what metric we're looking for to signal an end to the restrictions.

Correct or not, governments are being overly cautious, and society is in general agreement - particularly in Canada.

If you mean "overly cautious of offending their base and maybe not getting re-elected" then yes.

[_Q_]

Originally Posted by Makarov

A restaurant refusing entry to anyone who can't prove flu vaccination is a little different, as it wouldn't even engage a Human Rights Code-protected ground (in most cases). That wouldn't really be any different then the old "no shoes, no shirt, no service" policy. That is entirely the restaurant owner's prerogative.

Or are some people advocating for legislation that would REQUIRE a business to provide service to unvaccinated people?

I don't think there will ever be a government mandated requirement to check health records before entering a private business at the same level as whats being done with covid in some jurisdictions.

I do think, however, that once the vaccine passport cat is out of the bag, certain businesses will start to require other health related checks prior to entry. Without strong regulations prohibiting this, it's not far fetched to see this coming very soon, which I find extremely problematic.

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by _Q_

I don't think there will ever be a government mandated requirement to check health records before entering a private business at the same level as whats being done with covid in some jurisdictions.

I do think, however, that once the vaccine passport cat is out of the bag, certain businesses will start to require other health related checks prior to entry. Without strong regulations prohibiting this, it's not far fetched to see this coming very soon, which I find extremely problematic.

Can you give examples of what you'd be worried about seeing?

[Makarov]

Originally Posted by _Q_

I don't think there will ever be a government mandated requirement to check health records before entering a private business at the same level as whats being done with covid in some jurisdictions.

I do think, however, that once the vaccine passport cat is out of the bag, certain businesses will start to require other health related checks prior to entry. Without strong regulations prohibiting this, it's not far fetched to see this coming very soon, which I find extremely problematic.

What is so problematic about it (provided it isn't discrimination)? How is it different than a "no shoes, no shirt, no service" policy? Or a swimming pool with a policy that says "you can't swim here if you have open wounds or foot fungus, etc."?

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

The majority of the population is in favour of vaccine mandates.

Vaccines are popular. You'll have the same people out there complaining about vaccine mandate for a flu vaccine as you have for the covid vaccine now if there was a real risk of the hospitals being over-run.

I’m not sure why you think this is a rebuttal. Makarov asked Q why an establishment would impose a passport for health conditions beyond covid, such as flu. I explained for the same reason they would impose them over covid.

Though it is worth noting that only around 40 per cent of Canadians get annual flu vaccines, and the same contentious disputes over health care and care home workers getting covid vaccines have been going over flu vaccines for years.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Makarov

A restaurant refusing entry to anyone who can't prove flu vaccination is a little different, as it wouldn't even engage a Human Rights Code-protected ground (in most cases). That wouldn't really be any different then the old "no shoes, no shirt, no service" policy. That is entirely the restaurant owner's prerogative.

Or are some people advocating for legislation that would REQUIRE a business to provide service to unvaccinated people?

I’m confused here. I thought Q’s suggestion that we could see flu passports was a slippery slope and not credible?

Do you think it’s likely we’ll see them going forward, and would you support them?