Ongoing US Mass Shooting Thread 2

[JohnnyB]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

Extremely disturbing video of the Uvalde shooting. Every law maker should be forced to watch.

NSFW!

That kid walking down the hall at about 5:00 minutes in was lucky to escape with his life.

I couldn't watch that through. Just too horrific.

[Harry Lime]

Just saw the footage of Uvalde, above.

That is the face of cowardice. Dozens of men armed and armoured, looking tough, but with no conviction or honor. They were there for the cosplay. The only legible piece of speech was after the breach, when the first through the door saw the massacre that happened while they partied outside.

Also, chilling to hear the rapid fire of that rifle, knowing that every bullet was built and intended to be used against a soldier wearing body armour. How do politicians escape this gunfire year after year? A little first hand experience and this would be over already. I'm not advocating that, but the poster above was right when they said that lawmakers should be forced to watch this, and I would add that they should be forced to study the autopsies of the victims, as well.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by Envitro

There's plenty of those instances of a legally armed civilian stopping a would-be mass-shooter, especially in the last few months.

It's just that this time it was pretty obvious what had happened right away and the headline included this detail (which is, to be honest, what most people read these days, not the actual article).

Uggh

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by Envitro

There's plenty of those instances of a legally armed civilian stopping a would-be mass-shooter, especially in the last few months.

I'd be interested in seeing those stats.

[Envitro]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

I'd be interested in seeing those stats.

I don't have those stats in my back pocket, it's my understanding that it's hard to track since the FBI clumps all shootings together, but I'll try to dig it up.
I believe that most research into this has been difficult since you have to sift through media reports, rather than using FBI or government stats (due to aforementioned issue).

In the meantime, here's one from end of May, not sure if it was well circulated at the time.

https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/...crowd-85002437

A woman in West Virginia fatally shot a man who began firing an AR-15-style rifle into a crowd of people that had gathered for a party, authorities said.

Dennis Butler, 37, was killed Wednesday night after he pulled out the rifle and began shooting at dozens of people attending the birthday-graduation party outside an apartment complex in the city of Charleston, police said in a statement.

The woman, who was attending the party, drew a pistol and fired, killing Butler, the statement said. No one at the party was injured.

[Fuzz]

You know what's better than a good guy with a gun shooting a bad guy with a gun? No guns so no one gets shot.

[Envitro]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

You know what's better than a good guy with a gun shooting a bad guy with a gun? No guns so no one gets shot.

I don't necessarily disagree, but unfortunately that's never going to be a world that we live in.

That's just reality. The U.S. has more small arms in their civilian population than most of the armies of the world combined.

Try to remove those firearms from the population, and I don't see that working out well for anyone.

So what's the best thing to do going forward?
I don't know, honestly, but there are probably solutions to be had, at least incremental ones that make everyone safer, without trying to "grab all the guns".

The problem is that when you remove the guns from the lawful citizens, only the criminals will possess guns. You may think that that's OK, but I don't.

[Envitro]

Originally Posted by Envitro

I don't have those stats in my back pocket, it's my understanding that it's hard to track since the FBI clumps all shootings together, but I'll try to dig it up.
I believe that most research into this has been difficult since you have to sift through media reports, rather than using FBI or government stats (due to aforementioned issue).

In the meantime, here's one from end of May, not sure if it was well circulated at the time.

https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/...crowd-85002437

Here's a pretty comprehensive list of a "good guy with a gun" stopping a criminal or active shooter, all collated from mainstream media sources:

https://crimeresearch.org/2022/07/ub...blic-shooting/

[Harry Lime]

People who want to kill large numbers of other people clearly know to go get themselves an ar-15. That someone was stopped was irrelevant. If they wanted to make six shooters legal for everyone and go back to the old west, that would be miles better than what they have now.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Envitro

I don't necessarily disagree, but unfortunately that's never going to be a world that we live in.

That's just reality. The U.S. has more small arms in their civilian population than most of the armies of the world combined.

Try to remove those firearms from the population, and I don't see that working out well for anyone.

So what's the best thing to do going forward?
I don't know, honestly, but there are probably solutions to be had, at least incremental ones that make everyone safer, without trying to "grab all the guns".

The problem is that when you remove the guns from the lawful citizens, only the criminals will possess guns. You may think that that's OK, but I don't.

Well, you can compare gun deaths to countries where "only bad guys have guns" to the US situation, and it should be pretty obvious which situation has fewer deaths of innocent people. You may be OK with innocent people dying so you can play warrior, but I'm not. It's baffling you can even try to make that argument with all the facts we have access to.

[habernac]

The "well, there's too many so we can't do anything" take is lame.

[Envitro]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Well, you can compare gun deaths to countries where "only bad guys have guns" to the US situation, and it should be pretty obvious which situation has fewer deaths of innocent people. You may be OK with innocent people dying so you can play warrior, but I'm not. It's baffling you can even try to make that argument with all the facts we have access to.

Facts, right...

[PsYcNeT]

Originally Posted by Envitro

Facts, right...

Now do one that only shows Violent Crime involving guns

[Fuzz]

Are you suggesting it is the increase of guns that caused crimes to decrease? You need to compare against other countries with different gun policies.

Spoiler!

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-41488081

or

Spoiler!

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-polit...land-uk-canada

Or any of the thousands of other stories that have been written on this.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by Envitro

Facts, right...

https://www.ojp.gov/ncjrs/virtual-li...al-crime-rates


U.S. crime rates for the three violent crimes homicide, rape, robbery) were several times higher than the averages for reporting European countries. The U.S. homicide rate was 10.5-7.9 per 100,000 population compared to Europe's less than 2 per 100,000. The U.S. rate for rape was approximately seven times higher than the average for Europe. United States robbery rates were approximately four times higher than those in Europe. Theft and auto theft in the United States were approximately twice as high as in Europe. The U.S. rates for violent crime were also higher than those for Canada, Australia, and New Zealand, but differences were smaller than those for Europe.

[activeStick]

25 good guys with training and guns didn't even do anything in Uvalde.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Cheese

https://www.ojp.gov/ncjrs/virtual-li...al-crime-rates


U.S. crime rates for the three violent crimes homicide, rape, robbery) were several times higher than the averages for reporting European countries. The U.S. homicide rate was 10.5-7.9 per 100,000 population compared to Europe's less than 2 per 100,000. The U.S. rate for rape was approximately seven times higher than the average for Europe. United States robbery rates were approximately four times higher than those in Europe. Theft and auto theft in the United States were approximately twice as high as in Europe. The U.S. rates for violent crime were also higher than those for Canada, Australia, and New Zealand, but differences were smaller than those for Europe.

To be fair, the USA also has horrible social security infrastructure and horrible management/criminilization of drug addiction. There's also a long history of extreme racism, including total marginalization, economic and otherwise, of various minority groups. A lot more impoverished and desperate people in the USA. It's not just guns contributing to crime in the USA, lots of other major social issues.

[JohnnyB]

Originally Posted by activeStick

25 good guys with training and guns didn't even do anything in Uvalde.

Yeah, the actual behavior of those trained good guys when under pressure was pathetic. It's tempting to crack a joke at their expense, but the reality of what happened as a result of their failure to actually take action to protect children is too tragic. They don't even deserve to be the brunt of jokes.

[FlamesAddiction]

Not to get into body shaming and stuff, but most of those officers looked so badly out of shape that they likely lack the quickness and stealth to properly take out a gunman in a lot of situations. I don't think it should be too much to ask that field officers meet some kind of fitness requirements.

[Icantwhisper]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

Not to get into body shaming and stuff, but most of those officers looked so badly out of shape that they likely lack the quickness and stealth to properly take out a gunman in a lot of situations. I don't think it should be too much to ask that field officers meet some kind of fitness requirements.

It's the states, those are the fit ones