Alberta alienation and independence

[tkflames]

This is a really interesting thread topic as I often find there to be a lot more of this sentiment than people Express publicly.

I would suggest that this sentiment is also predominant in people that have never lived outside the province. Canada as a whole is not trying to screw Albertans. We had a Calgary prime minister with a majority for a substantial portion of the last two decades. The reason people on the coast has very little to do with them hating Albertans and wanting to screw them and way more to do with being concerned about their own communities (and not necessarily understanding or wanting the financial impacts).

I would strongly encourage those that are feeling a strong case of this alienation to look inward about the environment you have placed yourself in (echo chambers, life experience etc.) to feel this way.

ASIDE: For those stuck on the pipeline sentiment...building pipelines is hard. We have a hard enough time building facilities when the surrounding landowners are the only stakeholders in a specific area Just ask Keystone stakeholders who are allegedly building in the most business friendly country in the world.

[SeeGeeWhy]

We would be so beyond vulnerable to foreign invasion risk it wouldn’t be funny.

We would need to begin developing our uranium resources in the Athabaskan basin immediately for both power and Defense purposes. I would also argue that we would need to get sask, Manitoba and perhaps NWT on board so we had some semblance of tide water access.

But really wtf would this accomplish?

[killer_carlson]

Originally Posted by tkflames

This is a really interesting thread topic as I often find there to be a lot more of this sentiment than people Express publicly.

I would suggest that this sentiment is also predominant in people that have never lived outside the province. Canada as a whole is not trying to screw Albertans. We had a Calgary prime minister with a majority for a substantial portion of the last two decades. The reason people on the coast has very little to do with them hating Albertans and wanting to screw them and way more to do with being concerned about their own communities (and not necessarily understanding or wanting the financial impacts).

I would strongly encourage those that are feeling a strong case of this alienation to look inward about the environment you have placed yourself in (echo chambers, life experience etc.) to feel this way.

ASIDE: For those stuck on the pipeline sentiment...building pipelines is hard. We have a hard enough time building facilities when the surrounding landowners are the only stakeholders in a specific area Just ask Keystone stakeholders who are allegedly building in the most business friendly country in the world.

Interesting. My observations are different.

My observations are that those who are interested in exploring the issue (whether they support or not) are those who are adversely affected by the oil industry.

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by GullFoss

And poverty calbire workers have gotten raises due to minimum wage increases.

Poverty calibre workers? Wow that’s an interesting take

[accord1999]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

It’s pretty frustrating. Why doesn’t Alberta go really really strong into supporting and propping up transitional energy industry research, businesses or ideas? Alberta should continue to be an energy leading province and that includes other sectors of the energy industry aside from oil and gas. You can put a pile of subsidies or money into these industries, and I’m not sure why that isn’t being done. Solar, wind, hydro, etc. Is there no more efficiencies or cheaper ways to make all these technologies? Is there no more to be done in battery technology or geothermal or whatever?

But that's what Ontario did, and they failed completely. Whatever industry they created shutdowns as soon as unsustainable governments subsidies run out as well as helping to increase electricity prices.

Alberta has a lot of oil and great know-how on getting it out of the ground, but it has a tiny population and no significant manufacturing prowess or capabilities. China alone in 2017 added over 12 GW of hydro, 18 GW of wind, and 53 GW of solar generation capacity. The entire Alberta generation fleet is only 16 GW. And even all that, the energy sources that grew the most in China was coal and oil. Alberta is missing out on the current Chinese oil import boom:

http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/201..._137613608.htm

China's crude oil imports saw a sharp increase in October, surging 31.5 percent year on year to 40.8 million tonnes, with the daily import rate reaching a new record high of 1.32 million tonnes.

[Thor]

When the oil industry ultimately implodes because we move to non-fossil fuel alternatives, I wonder what will happen to this province. I hope it doesn't end up like the former automotive cities like Detroit, Flint, etc..

[Flamenspiel]

^^**t happens things change. The oil industry is dead right now, so we are already seeing that. It may stop in Canada, but it will never stop in countries like Russia, China, and Saudi Arabia. I know a lot of people who are already working there and send money back.

[DiracSpike]

Originally Posted by tkflames

This is a really interesting thread topic as I often find there to be a lot more of this sentiment than people Express publicly.

I would suggest that this sentiment is also predominant in people that have never lived outside the province. Canada as a whole is not trying to screw Albertans. We had a Calgary prime minister with a majority for a substantial portion of the last two decades. The reason people on the coast has very little to do with them hating Albertans and wanting to screw them and way more to do with being concerned about their own communities (and not necessarily understanding or wanting the financial impacts).

I would strongly encourage those that are feeling a strong case of this alienation to look inward about the environment you have placed yourself in (echo chambers, life experience etc.) to feel this way.

ASIDE: For those stuck on the pipeline sentiment...building pipelines is hard. We have a hard enough time building facilities when the surrounding landowners are the only stakeholders in a specific area Just ask Keystone stakeholders who are allegedly building in the most business friendly country in the world.

Building pipelines is hard but not this hard. Not three major projects shelved in 5 years, historic price differential hard. Literally every other oil producing country on Earth can get them built and functional in the space of a couple years. TMX was proposed 6 YEARS AGO. The Americans have built 3,000 miles of pipelines in 2018, Canada has built zero. ZERO.

And yeah Keystone has met difficulties, but only because it's a Canadian pipeline and the foreign money pouring in to keep the gravy train rolling for American refiners doesn't care about domestic US pipelines. We really really have to get out of the mindset that pipelines are too hard, or 6-8 year delays on major projects are normal, or the Government having to buy a project from a private company that was ready to build it on their own dime is OK. It's not. It's a travesty and it's costing us tens of billions.

[accord1999]

Originally Posted by Thor

When the oil industry ultimately implodes because we move to non-fossil fuel alternatives, I wonder what will happen to this province. I hope it doesn't end up like the former automotive cities like Detroit, Flint, etc..

What happens when wood implodes because we moved to non-wood alternatives... oh wait, we use more wood than ever in human history.

What happens when iron implodes because we moved to non-iron alternatives... oh wait, we use more iron than ever in human history.

What happens when coal implodes because we moved to non-coal alternatives... oh wait, we use more coal than ever in human history.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by accord1999

What happens when wood implodes because we moved to non-wood alternatives... oh wait, we use more wood than ever in human history.

What happens when iron implodes because we moved to non-iron alternatives... oh wait, we use more iron than ever in human history.

What happens when coal implodes because we moved to non-coal alternatives... oh wait, we use more coal than ever in human history.

What happens when whale oil implodes because we moved to non whale alternatives ... oh wait

What happens when the horse and buggy industry implodes because we moved to non horse alternatives ... oh wait


The better response to the Detroit and Flint argument is that the car industry imploding didn’t affect them at all. In fact the car industry never implodes. More cars are sold than ever before. Instead Automation and Outsoursing (both domestically and internationally) reduced the need for employment of labourers.). Where Calgary won’t become Detroit is that we have a highly educated work force with skills that can transfer.

[calgarywinning]

Originally Posted by accord1999

What happens when wood implodes because we moved to non-wood alternatives... oh wait, we use more wood than ever in human history.

What happens when iron implodes because we moved to non-iron alternatives... oh wait, we use more iron than ever in human history.

What happens when coal implodes because we moved to non-coal alternatives... oh wait, we use more coal than ever in human history.

I love this post, because I think I could extend it longer and know what the beginning of the sentence will be and definitely the end.

I think it could apply to just about anything in life...

What happens when cadbury Mini Eggs disappear we move onto mini-egg alternatives... oh wait, we use more cadbury mini eggs than ever in human history.

[Frequitude]

Originally Posted by GGG

It depends on the cost of sequestering Carbon from the air is current proposed tech is about $100-$300 dollars. If that gets close to $50 than oil is viable forever or until batteries become cheaper however batteries have their own significant availability issues if widely adopted. So it will be interesting to see if Moore’s law can take care of global warming for us.

I’m with you that carbon sequestration getting competitive is the most likely game changer. It will allow mankind to sustainably keep making use of the incredibly dense energy source that oil presents. And it’s getting closer to economic.

But batteries aren’t substitutes for oil. They're just a tank. Receptacles for energy, not sources of energy themselves. You still have to “fill” them. And the only available energy source dense enough to economically fill all those batteries, even if they were free, is coal.

In my opinion the sustainable green future is one or both of oil + economic carbon capture and/or nuclear + batteries. They’re the oil two energy sources dense enough and voluminous enough to power the world.

[Weitz]

I’m always shocked at the amount of people who sre happy to see Alberts hurting just so others can benefit. Then in the same breath talk about how we should help the “average person”

[accord1999]

Originally Posted by GGG

What happens when whale oil implodes because we moved to non whale alternatives ... oh wait

I ignore whale oil since it was never a significant source of energy compare to wood during the same time period. I was primarily looking at the major resources that humanity consumed today and historically.



https://www.mdpi.com/1996-1073/7/12/7955/htm



My post was based on an article that stated "Despite renewables growth, there has never been an energy transition"

https://www.axios.com/despite-renewa...bce483473.html

When coal surpassed wood/biomass as the #1 primary energy source, the world still burnt wood/biomass. When oil replaced coal for transportation, coal was used for electricity (and steel). When natural gas became plentiful, people just used it in addition to coal and oil. Just because an alternative arises doesn't mean it will completely replace the original resource.

[icecube]

Originally Posted by Weitz

I’m always shocked at the amount of people who sre happy to see Alberts hurting just so others can benefit. Then in the same breath talk about how we should help the “average person”

Who is happy that Alberta is hurting? I think it's just everyone else rolling their eyes at the posters who are acting like a toddler having a tantrum; as if Alberta is the only province hurting right now. Look around for Christ sakes. Things are tough all over. The person who said entitlement is a problem hit the frickin nail on the head.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Frequitude

I’m with you that carbon sequestration getting competitive is the most likely game changer. It will allow mankind to sustainably keep making use of the incredibly dense energy source that oil presents. And it’s getting closer to economic.

But batteries aren’t substitutes for oil. They're just a tank. Receptacles for energy, not sources of energy themselves. You still have to “fill” them. And the only available energy source dense enough to economically fill all those batteries, even if they were free, is coal.

In my opinion the sustainable green future is one or both of oil + economic carbon capture and/or nuclear + batteries. They’re the oil two energy sources dense enough and voluminous enough to power the world.

Batteries are key because right now we don’t have an alternative tank for moving vehicles. Once you have an alternative tank you can solve the problem on a large scale. Not considering anything with renewables a Liter of Diesel has 35 MJ of energy and cost $1. Nat Gas is $2-$3 per GJ retail. So roughly 50 - 100 times cheaper. Renewables are also significantly cheaper than diesel as a source of energy. So while the large scale power side of the equation still needs to be solved at scale the battery allows for a substitution to exist.

Before the ICE the horse didn’t have a potential substitute to covert energy into work. Right now Diesel and gas don’t have substitutes therefore you pay 100 times more more the same energy.

I think even with reasonably economic carbon capture that Nat Gas and batteries end up reducing a lot of oil demand. The efficiencies and pollution reduction of centralizing generation are really significant.

[Traditional_Ale]

Originally Posted by GGG

Batteries are key because right now we don’t have an alternative tank for moving vehicles. Once you have an alternative tank you can solve the problem on a large scale.

Supercapacitors.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supercapacitor

[DiracSpike]

Originally Posted by icecube

Who is happy that Alberta is hurting? I think it's just everyone else rolling their eyes at the posters who are acting like a toddler having a tantrum; as if Alberta is the only province hurting right now. Look around for Christ sakes. Things are tough all over. The person who said entitlement is a problem hit the frickin nail on the head.

No that person is a moron and so are you. Albertans are so entitled not wanting our oil to sell at 60% discount. What a bunch of whiners hey.

[icecube]

Originally Posted by DiracSpike

No that person is a moron and so are you. Albertans are so entitled not wanting our oil to sell at 60% discount. What a bunch of whiners hey.

Alright I admit that I'm happy certain people aren't doing so well. You for instance. Scratches me right where I itch.

[DiracSpike]

I'm doing fine bud. It's the country that's gonna suffer, because of myopic morons like yourself. Better go to a doctor to get that itch checked out because soon the rest of us won't be able to pay him to check your crusty ass out.