Arena negotiation discussion. UPD: Flames release their proposal

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

At the end of the day we will win the battle against the owners and lose the war (No Team)

I don't actually think the owners will move, mostly because with so many they will never agree to it!

But it amazes me that people would be happy with them leaving to 'stick it to the billionaire owners'

If people don't believe the Flames add a ton of economic stimulus to the city I don't know what to say.

Just the players salaries generates how much in income taxes and purchasing power for local businesses.

Both sides are a joke, and the fans will be the only losers in this battle.

The argument for how much economic stimulus the flames bring to the city is debatable, and will be reduced once we start subsidizing their operations. The tax revenue generated by player income and property ownership are very real, however they are a drop in the bucket overall. They donate to charity, but likely receive tax breaks from that. The purchasing power of individual players is a bit of a tricky argument, yeah they make millions, but that doesn't mean they spend all of it. One person earning $1M/year will likely contribute to less local businesses than 20 people earning $50k/year will combined.

FTR I believe at the end of the day the flames aren't going anywhere and a deal will be reached, but this side show is getting old really quick, especially the flames' approach IMO.

[OldDutch]

Originally Posted by Tyler

End of the day, I think we go for the 2026 Olympics and the feds swoop in to fill the funding gap and we get a new arena.

We look back and laugh at all the 2017 drama with fondness.

Isn't that the worst case scenario? The Olympics were forecast to have a $2.6 billion shortfall.

So instead of losing $100 million more on the arena, we will lose 26 times that?

Future me isn't laughing at present me in that scenario. No matter how much I want this to work.

[Muta]

Originally Posted by Tron_fdc

Exactly. And right there is what bothers me.

Can anyone sit here with a straight face and tell me it's worth it? It's better we have an arena than say a hospital, schools, roads, etc?

I have a buffet of hospitals to choose from, I finished school long ago so those don't count, and there's enough km's of roads in this city to build an interstellar highway to Rigel 7. Time to fund the arena, damnit!

[Lanny_McDonald]

Nvm

[pylon]

Originally Posted by Table 5

1. Just because someone makes a lot of money in one industry, does not make them an expert in another. Nor does it make them some sort of deity whose altar we should grovel at.

2. When it comes to city planning, it's Nenshi that is the expert at the table. I mean the man has a degree from frickin' Harvard on the subject. Unless there's some sort of mad genius strategy that involves sending out a bumbling boob to speak for you, the Flames seem wildly out of their element.

I'm not debating any of this. I actually really like the City's proposal.

I'm am debating the way in which it was delivered, and the tact Nenshi used negotiating with the cities most recognisable and beloved corporation.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by pylon

I'm not debating any of this. I actually really like the City's proposal.

I'm am debating the way in which it was delivered, and the tact Nenshi used negotiating with the cities most recognisable and beloved corporation.

What?

Friendly advice, your most beloved corporation is trying to bend you over the table. First by asking for a big handout, then with a massive price increase.

[GordonBlue]

Originally Posted by Backlunds_socks

Haha, CSEC is not a bear - they need the city not vice-versa. CSECs like a little parasite that can be helpful at times.

and everyone will go crawling back to that "parasite" once this is settled and there is a shiny new arena to play in. (and not many people will care who paid what percentage)
so much hate towards CSEC right now.

this is just like a lockout where people say "they'll never get my money again" and then once the season starts money is spent hand over fist.

It's the flames. all will be glossed over and forgiven.

[stone hands]

Tell me again how a new arena impacts you if you don't live here? Both in terms of paying for it or your in-arena viewing experience. Or if they move how that will impact your viewing

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by pylon

I'm not debating any of this. I actually really like the City's proposal.

I'm am debating the way in which it was delivered, and the tact Nenshi used negotiating with the cities most recognisable and beloved corporation.

Are you sure this doesn't just boil down to you disliking nenshi? Both sides have made some questionable moves in this negotiation but you keep harping on nenshi for his attitude and status as a "small timer" while claiming he suffers from little man syndrome. Meanwhile you're also putting the flames and Murray Edwards up on a pedestal(at least compared to nenshi) and making it seem as though you feel they should be calling all the shots and nenshi should be answering to them.

[pylon]

Originally Posted by nik-

What?

Friendly advice, your most beloved corporation is trying to bend you over the table. First by asking for a big handout, then with a massive price increase.

Do you have reading comprehension issues?

I've said numerous times the Flames can pound salt. I don't agree with their plan. I agree with the cities proposal.

I also realise under any circumstance I am going to have to pay more for tickets regardless of who builds the arena. Even if the Flames spent not one dime on anything and their costs reduced, they would be stupid not to charge more for a better experience in a better facility.

My whole issue has been the behaviour of the mayor in this whole thing. He alienated CSEC and drove them away from the table.

[Backlunds_socks]

Originally Posted by pylon

Find one post where I have disclosed my income on this site.

And posting about cars I own in an automotive discussion thread is an ego thing?

OK champ.

I know you hate Nenshi, but I thank Ken King because he handed Nenshi his 3rd term.

[RM14]

Originally Posted by iggy_oi

Lol. How do you get $10/taxpayer when the ask is in the hundreds of millions of dollars and our city has a population 1.2M?

just a random number. I doubt there are any individuals getting the shaft personally. If the city were to straight contribute non-recoverable cash (which they aren't). Some number crunching:

* Total 2016 City of Calgary Revenue: $4,700,000,000
* 450,000 households X $3,000 each per year = $1,350,000,000 (29% of city Revenue)
*City Expense for Arena funding: $250,000,000 X 29% = $72,500,000 to Households. Or, $161 per house.
*$161 cash upfront / 30 years - about $5 per year per house.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by pylon

Do you have reading comprehension issues?

I've said numerous times the Flames can pound salt. I don't agree with their plan. I agree with the cities proposal.

I also realise under any circumstance I am going to have to pay more for tickets regardless of who builds the arena. Even if the Flames spent not one dime on anything and their costs reduced, they would be stupid not to charge more for a better experience in a better facility.

My whole issue has been the behaviour of the mayor in this whole thing. He alienated CSEC and drove them away from the table.

So you're just bitching about Nenshi for fun now conveniently ignoring the fact that it was the Flames who started this off on the wrong foot from the beginning?

The beloved Flames who made a play to try and appeal to public emotion and had it blow up in their faces? They're the victims of poor treatment now?

What a joke.

[Table 5]

Originally Posted by pylon

I'm am debating the way in which it was delivered, and the tact Nenshi used negotiating with the cities most recognisable and beloved corporation.

Well let's face it, the CalgaryNEXT proposal was laughably bad. It perhaps didn't deserve the snark, but it definitely deserved the ridicule. And that snark used by Nenshi is more than cancelled out by the arrogance used by King and the Flames. What we are left with are the actual proposals...which even you admit are one sided. For a finance guy, you'd think those numbers would be more important than any song and dance.

At the end of the day, Id still rather have a snarky mayor who looks looks out for my best interest as a citizen, than a nice guy like Duerr who gets nothing done, or Bronconnier who's sole purpose is to serve his development interests.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by nik-

So you're just bitching about Nenshi for fun now conveniently ignoring the fact that it was the Flames who started this off on the wrong foot from the start?



The beloved Flames?

Nenshi kicked off his campaign by showing a brand new arena in his vision for the East Village. An arena that he has no way of funding, and has made no progress in acquiring funding for. If he has someone else lined up to fund the arena, then cool...otherwise don’t you think he would have wanted to clarify some things with the Flames , the organization he had been in negotiations with, before publicly proposing it?

[pylon]

Originally Posted by iggy_oi

Are you sure this doesn't just boil down to you disliking nenshi? Both sides have made some questionable moves in this negotiation but you keep harping on nenshi for his attitude and status as a "small timer" while claiming he suffers from little man syndrome. Meanwhile you're also putting the flames and Murray Edwards up on a pedestal(at least compared to nenshi) and making it seem as though you feel they should be calling all the shots and nenshi should be answering to them.

Correct, I do not like Nenshi. Every time I warmed up to the guy, he did something remarkably dumb to tarnish his image in my eyes. My final straw was using handouts to cover his legal bill. This in my eyes should have been illegal. Whatever Cal Wenzel was, it's not the duty of a public politician to attempt to label him with extremely defamatory language.

I think Ken King is a puppet in this, I can't blame him. I think his refusal to answer questions today was because he did not even have answers. My opinion is Murray Edwards has decided to move on.

I don't put Murray Edwards on a pedestal, but he is an extremely successful business man, who is not going to launch a money losing business venture. Which unfortunately, this is. If that means moving the team to make it profitable, so be it. At the end of the day it is a business, and you cannot expect the owner to sign up to lose money.

Perhaps Calgary is just to small to fit the modern day economics of the NHL and a new building. 4-7 years ago, it would have worked. But costs are getting so stratospheric with the cost of these new buildings, and operating costs, perhaps we missed the window of opportunity.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

Nenshi kicked off his campaign by showing a brand new arena in his vision for the East Village. An arena that he has no way of funding, and has made no progress in acquiring funding for. If he has someone else lined up to fund the arena, then cool...otherwise don’t you think he would have wanted to clarify some things with the Flames , the organization he had been in negotiations with, before publicly proposing it?

The Vic Park plan had been discussed as option B shortly after CalgaryNEXT was presented.

So unless they forgot, it wasn't a surprise.

[CampbellsTransgressions]

Oh my god conservatives are some of the most overwhelmingly stupid people, especially when they want to go into further debt so that we can finance an arena.

The Flames aren't going to move because they will lose money hand over fist wherever else they go. If that isn't obvious based on the performance of 2/3rds of the teams in the league then I don't know what is.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by nik-

The Vic Park plan had been discussed as option B shortly after CalgaryNEXT was presented.



So unless they forgot, it wasn't a surprise.

Not a surprise, but there was no basis for funding. So Nenshi was running on a completely unfunded arena? Or was Nenshi running on an entirely publicly funded arena? What was his plan? Is he just assuming someone is going to privately fund it? Or does he have a partner who is onboard with his proposed funding model?

[topfiverecords]

Originally Posted by New Era

Yup, I said I would support a rule of thirds model. Not specific dollars, just the model. This is also a viable model, based on one implemented up the road. There are various models that could work. In relation to the poll you posted, I picked that particular option. Doesn't mean its the only option I think can work. I guess that's what makes me different? I'm not completely sold on any single solution for anything. There are many ways to skin the same cat. I wish more people would look at the issue that way.

Say, did your taxes pay for the Saddledome? Did your taxes pay for the renovation? Mine did, and I don't get any value out of those dollars spent. So please, STFU about not living in Calgary nor having the outcome of this affecting me. The majority of the infrastructure you use, and that education you're claiming to have, was paid for by my taxes that I contributed for over 35 years. Just because someone moved away from Calgary does not mean they no long have, nor never had, an investment in the city, nor interest in the direction it takes.

Signed - a second tier fan

You seem like a reasonable fella.

My comment was pure fact. You don't live in Calgary. A property tax increase to pay for an arena wouldn't affect you one nickel.

If you don't get any value out of the Saddledome, then you're also not likely going to get any value out of a new arena (unless Celine does a tour to the new arena and you must come here to see her). Your only interest is in discussing the details of this hypothetical deal from afar. Discuss away.

Don't get pissy with me gramps and play all high and mighty about your taxes paid for this and that. Did your taxes pay for the Corral? Did your taxes pay for the Victoria Arena? Did your taxes pay for the railroad that built this country? Not one penny of your taxes paid for my education. Did you pay for the peace bridge, cycle network, airport tunnel, west LRT? Probably not. If you ever use any next time you're in the City please drop by to say thanks.

You had every right to have an official say on how your property tax dollars were spent in the time you were paying them, just like I do now.