Alberta Politics & Government Thread 3.0

[edslunch]

Originally Posted by 14Roman14

How was someone who made a different medical decision who did not have COVID more risky to be beside in a restaurant or a hockey game than someone who may or may not have showed symptoms but had a card saying they were accepted in society? It was common knowledge to stay home when showing any symptoms regardless. However I didn’t once hear of anyone being kicked out of a restaurant or sporting event for sneezing, coughing, or blowing their nose inside. This may have made sense if that card proved that you couldn’t get, or pass the virus. Unfortunately that proved not to be true. I get that everyone feels they made the correct choice. I’m very glad that for the most part things are back to normal and most are accepting of everyone now that politicians and media aren’t telling you to be intolerant of others. So far I haven’t heard the premier say that she wants to take anybody’s rights, she wants to make sure everyone always has equal rights as they should. Agree or disagree, but people should not be discriminated against for any reason. As another poster said earlier, most are over it, and once this initial shock wears off, I hope it continues to just be normal, which it will if folks stop fighting for their “right” to discriminate. The vax didn’t stop COVID in its tracks, the non vax didn’t all drop dead or cause everyone around them to drop dead. Both sides are still in society and it would be great if there is never such a divide in our world again where some members of society were put on a pedestal and others were stomped on like sewer rats. I think if we can all be respectful and understanding of both sides it can go a long ways. I personally think that is what the premier is asking for, and if you are too intolerant to do that, then maybe it’s mirror time.

The thing is, it wasn't really about protecting people from the unvaxed, though I know a lot of people were more comfortable in a vax-only environment. The two bigger reasons were:

1. To give an incentive for people to get vaxed. They tried the carrot ($$), then they went to the stick (restrictions)
2. Keeping unvaccinated people from getting sick by keeping them out of crowds.

Unvaccinated people at the time were the majority of patients flooding the ICUs. They either needed to get them vaccinated or keep them away from covid. Funny how something enacted for their own and the public's good is turned into discrimination complaints.

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by edslunch

The thing is, it wasn't really about protecting people from the unvaxed, though I know a lot of people were more comfortable in a vax-only environment. The two bigger reasons were:

1. To give an incentive for people to get vaxed. They tried the carrot ($$), then they went to the stick (restrictions)
2. Keeping unvaccinated people from getting sick by keeping them out of crowds.
3. Protecting the healthcare system

Unvaccinated people at the time were the majority of patients flooding the ICUs. They either needed to get them vaccinated or keep them away from covid. Funny how something enacted for their own and the public's good is turned into discrimination complaints.

Fixed that for you

[timun]

Originally Posted by 14Roman14

If I met you on the street, I would offer you kindness and respect. I would not ask your status before I decided to give it to you or not.

No no no no no no no... If one is deliberately unvaccinated they are inherently disrespectful of me and everyone else around them.

Now put that group in a position where they were told they weren’t allowed on a plane, in a hockey arena, in a restaurant and looked down upon at every turn.

I would never ask someone for their age, sexual preference, race, gender, religion or any other divisive questions before offering respect, humility and kindness.

What an absolute crock of false equivalency ####. No one chooses their age, sexual preference, race, gender. One CHOOSES to go unvaccinated against the worst viral pandemic in a century, something which I very much could catch and risk my personal well-being.

The worst I'll get from encountering an old lesbian black woman buddhist is a funny story that sounds like the beginning of a punchline; the worst I could get from an anti-vaxxer is death.

[Amethyst]

Originally Posted by Delgar

I haven't donated since Covid hit, maybe I should go back (as O-, they always like seeing that). Do they ask if you're vaxxed (I'm double vaxxed, thinking about getting a third shot).

Not specifically if you're vaxxed for covid. They do ask if you've received a vaccine within a certain time frame, as that may affect your eligibility. Pretty sure covid vaccine doesn't.

[Geraldsh]

The Covid virus is mutating like crazy and hospital admissions are rising. I don’t doubt some anti-vaxers will see the light this winter.

[Harry Lime]

Medically speaking, isn't everyone who has not had a booster in the last six months one of the unvaccinated?

[Yoho]

Originally Posted by timun

No no no no no no no... If one is deliberately unvaccinated they are inherently disrespectful of me and everyone else around them.



What an absolute crock of false equivalency ####. No one chooses their age, sexual preference, race, gender. One CHOOSES to go unvaccinated against the worst viral pandemic in a century, something which I very much could catch and risk my personal well-being.

The worst I'll get from encountering an old lesbian black woman buddhist is a funny story that sounds like the beginning of a punchline; the worst I could get from an anti-vaxxer is death.

Aren’t you protected if your vaccinated? How would you die?

[Hemi-Cuda]

Originally Posted by Harry Lime

Medically speaking, isn't everyone who has not had a booster in the last six months one of the unvaccinated?

Big difference between no vaccine and missing the last booster. I only have the 3 shots, just tested positive for covid yesterday (first time), and so far it's felt the same as a regular cold. That probably wouldn't be the case if I was completely unvaccinated

[SebC]

The funny thing about vaccination is that at the start of the pandemic, it was really not a great choice for the individual (because our odds of encountering the virus were actually pretty low), but those of us who got vaccinated were doing our part of the group project to re-open society. With the new strains and society re-opened, it's really got a lot less societal impact (since the vaccines have little effect on transmission) but high individual benefit because our exposure risk is now much higher and it is effective in reducing severe outcomes.

The point of all this is that people who have been consistently anti-vaxx are not even rationally selfish freeloaders, they're just bad at making sound decisions.

[14Roman14]

Originally Posted by timun

No no no no no no no... If one is deliberately unvaccinated they are inherently disrespectful of me and everyone else around them.



What an absolute crock of false equivalency ####. No one chooses their age, sexual preference, race, gender. One CHOOSES to go unvaccinated against the worst viral pandemic in a century, something which I very much could catch and risk my personal well-being.

The worst I'll get from encountering an old lesbian black woman buddhist is a funny story that sounds like the beginning of a punchline; the worst I could get from an anti-vaxxer is death.

Oh yes, I’m certain you would most definitely just die if around anyone who didn't get jabbed. Wow. You realize that there were not mandates on grocery store workers right? So all the food you’ve eaten for the past three years could have been put out, and scanned through by some plague rat that could kill you right?

You could just as easily have had the virus without symptoms and passed it on to someone who died right?

You are all so scared of people who made a choice not to be vaccinated, that you somehow believe you are(or at least were) going to get COVID from them even if they do not have COVID. Meanwhile you are not at all scared of vaccinated people who can still get, and transfer COVID. The biggest benefit it offers is reduced symtoms, which could easily offer more transmission if people do not realize they have it and go out and spread it around.

By all means scrutinize those who are coughing and sneezing and blowing their nose sitting beside you the entire game. Meanwhile have a little sensibility to realize that not every unjabbed human on this planet has COVID 100 percent of the time and is putting you at risk if leaving the house healthy.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by 14Roman14

Oh yes, I’m certain you would most definitely just die if around anyone who didn't get jabbed. Wow. You realize that there were not mandates on grocery store workers right? So all the food you’ve eaten for the past three years could have been put out, and scanned through by some plague rat that could kill you right?

You could just as easily have had the virus without symptoms and passed it on to someone who died right?

You are all so scared of people who made a choice not to be vaccinated, that you somehow believe you are(or at least were) going to get COVID from them even if they do not have COVID. Meanwhile you are not at all scared of vaccinated people who can still get, and transfer COVID. The biggest benefit it offers is reduced symtoms, which could easily offer more transmission if people do not realize they have it and go out and spread it around.

By all means scrutinize those who are coughing and sneezing and blowing their nose sitting beside you the entire game. Meanwhile have a little sensibility to realize that not every unjabbed human on this planet has COVID 100 percent of the time and is putting you at risk if leaving the house healthy.

You understand that you are arguing against a strawman right.

No one ever stated or believed that every unvaxed human had Covid. No one ever believe that the vaccinated could not transmit the disease. Even with Alpha rate of transmission once infected by vaccinated was only reduced by something like 75-80%

What was always true was given the same levels of behaviour a unvaxxed person was more likely to get Covid and was more likely to transmit Covid to others. These are facts with a wide amount of scientific backing. So being around an unvaccinated person increased your risk of Covid.

That is what people are arguing this isn’t about absolute safety it’s was about increasing safety. And one thing people forget about the vaccines is how effective they were up to and including Delta at preventing infection. Omicrons r value changed things and made it much more about protecting yourself as the rates of transmission amomg vaccinated increased.

But when you arguing your argument needs to be the increased probability of death and the increased risk of hospitalization from acquisition did not warrant restricting the mobility rights of the unvaccinated. That is something that you could debate. But instead you are arguing a strawman and not even starting from basic facts.

You don’t need the Sarcasm and strawman to support your statistically life shortening decision.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by SebC

The funny thing about vaccination is that at the start of the pandemic, it was really not a great choice for the individual (because our odds of encountering the virus were actually pretty low), but those of us who got vaccinated were doing our part of the group project to re-open society. With the new strains and society re-opened, it's really got a lot less societal impact (since the vaccines have little effect on transmission) but high individual benefit because our exposure risk is now much higher and it is effective in reducing severe outcomes.

The point of all this is that people who have been consistently anti-vaxx are not even rationally selfish freeloaders, they're just bad at making sound decisions.

At the start the MNRA vaccine was 90% effective against infection. It was an amazing decision. Even something like AZ with the relative high blood clot risk and lower effectiveness made sense given the efficacy and exposure levels.

[GordonBlue]

this column on CBC reminds us that making vaccine status a human right, it would likely extend to ALL vaccines. every last one.

Danielle Smith wants vaccine status to be a human right. Expect a petri dish of problems

There are real-life consequences of banning vaccine mandates, and they'd go well beyond COVID

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calga...ysis-1.6615900


Vaccine mandates and rules aren't something that suddenly burst into the world in 2021, when Pfizer, Moderna and other companies devised shots to protect against the coronavirus. Such requirements have long been common for health-care workers, health sciences students and others in that realm. Requirements have remained in place for other vaccinations — Hepatitis B, measles, tetanus and other easily-preventable diseases with well-established immunization programs.

But if you're establishing a human right to refuse vaccines and not face employment or consumer consequences, Smith presumably cannot design a protected class only pertaining to immunization from one disease. One assumes it would have to apply to all vaccinations.

The Alberta Human Rights Act would effectively be protecting a newly-created freedom of one group of citizens, and in so doing limiting protections against disease for the other Albertans in their midst. That is, health-care workers would be free to be unprotected against an array of other diseases as they work in hospitals.

[btimbit]

Originally Posted by Yoho

Aren’t you protected if your vaccinated? How would you die?

Please, for all our sake, do some research on the subject

[Fuzz]

^^^
I just read that, here's a few more important bits:

"You're opening the door to having resurgences of vaccine-preventable diseases potentially spread in a health care setting," said Dr. Lynora Saxinger, an infectious diseases specialist at the University of Alberta.

Hep B, for example, is a chronic liver infection that can lead to cancer or liver failure, and is transmitted easily through blood. That vaccine, Saxinger said, has largely removed the previous risks of Hep B outbreaks in hospitals or other health facilities...

..."It's basically saying that the science and the ethics behind what we're doing right now don't matter anymore, and that you can have someone in health care who could potentially be carrying a transmissible infectious disease and exposing patients to it on an ongoing basis and not do anything about it," Saxinger said.

And people claim this women is intelligent? Her policies will be responsible for death, illness and increased burden on the healthcare system, but hey, at least we will be "free" right? What a stupid human(or is she a lizard person?).

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by btimbit

Please, for all our sake, do some research on the subject

That's how we got in this situation to begin with.

[Raekwon]

This is the biggest problem, misinformation on both sides by uninformed/misinformed people that the other side would use to prop their stance, nothing is worse than trying to argue a point only to have someone on “your side” spew misinformation and all of the factual information then takes a backseat and gets no focus.

This is what people do, they watch for the low hanging fruit. “ No one ever stated or believed that every unvaxed human had Covid. No one ever believe that the vaccinated could not transmit the disease.”

If only that were true, these people on twitter and other social media basically destroyed credibility, it doesn’t take much. At the same time nothing stops an anti-vaxx person from posting this type of information to help their cause, social media is the greatest threat to mankind after nuclear weapons.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Yoho

Aren’t you protected if your vaccinated? How would you die?

Originally Posted by 14Roman14

Oh yes, I’m certain you would most definitely just die if around anyone who didn't get jabbed. Wow. You realize that there were not mandates on grocery store workers right? So all the food you’ve eaten for the past three years could have been put out, and scanned through by some plague rat that could kill you right?

You could just as easily have had the virus without symptoms and passed it on to someone who died right?

You are all so scared of people who made a choice not to be vaccinated, that you somehow believe you are(or at least were) going to get COVID from them even if they do not have COVID. Meanwhile you are not at all scared of vaccinated people who can still get, and transfer COVID. The biggest benefit it offers is reduced symtoms, which could easily offer more transmission if people do not realize they have it and go out and spread it around.

By all means scrutinize those who are coughing and sneezing and blowing their nose sitting beside you the entire game. Meanwhile have a little sensibility to realize that not every unjabbed human on this planet has COVID 100 percent of the time and is putting you at risk if leaving the house healthy.

It’s funny that you both focus in on statements that are purposely hyperbolic for effect (and take them at face value) but conveniently ignore all the reasoned, measured responses to your bull####. Scale of 1-10, how difficult is it to protect the false reality you’ve carefully constructed for yourself? On average how much information do you have to ignore to feel as though you’ve reasoned yourself into your beliefs?

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

It’s funny exhausting, pathetic, causing me to question your intelligence that you both focus in on statements that are purposely hyperbolic for effect (and take them at face value) but conveniently ignore all the reasoned, measured responses to your bull####. Scale of 1-10, how difficult is it to protect the false reality you’ve carefully constructed for yourself? On average how much information do you have to ignore to feel as though you’ve reasoned yourself into your beliefs?

Just a few other options you could have gone with.....

[b1crunch]

To circle this back to Alberta politics...

This entire situation showcases the incompetence of Danielle Smith. She kicked a hornets nest and has created a situation where Albertans (vaxxed/unvaxxed) are arguing with one another over issues that have been argued to death at this point. How is this positive for the province going forward? How is this good leadership?

At this point of the pandemic, no one is changing anyone's mind about the efficacy of vaccines. People believe what they want and the arguments have all been revisited hundreds of times over. This is why Danielle Smith is already a failure as Premier. She should have left the issue alone, and governed in a manner that united Albertans and focused on our future, not revisiting and dredging up our past.

14Roman14... you were praising Smith and her focus on rights earlier in this thread. I'd argue she used her first comment as premier to throw gasoline on a fire that was seemingly going out or nearly dead. It was stupid on her part and an incredible failure as Premier.