Ongoing thread for Neal/Lucic discussion

[stang]

Originally Posted by CalgaryFan1988

After sleeping on it, I see this as a loss from both teams.

Why would Edmonton do this? They are essentially paying 6.5 million for the next 4 seasons for James Neal.....

Why would Calgary do this? They get a guy making 500k less that has a less chance of bouncing back, but I guess he brings a physical presence if he's not contributing on the scoresheet? With a NMC..... I guess if they trade him again and retain salary, it's cheaper than a buyout with less of a cap hit.

I don't know who lost more. Weird trade.

I don’t think of it as 6.5 for Neal.

5.75 for Neal, and .75 for Lucic to not play. Which I’m good with

[dustygoon]

Originally Posted by IamNotKenKing

No it doesn’t.
It means we have 2 years before the expansion draft to determine what will happen, who will waive and who we’ll have to protect, so there’s absolutely no sense in making such a proclamation until then.

What are you talking about? We added a NMC to our roster that requires protection which is something we didn't have before. Pretty simple. It is one extra player to protect that we didn't have to. Ya....no #### we have two years to maneuver around. You want to hide your head in the sand for two years.....have at it.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by BsFaninCGY

Lucic was done in Boston. Fans couldn't wait to show him the door. I felt bad when LA picked him up. When he signed in Edmonton, I told one of my Oiler fan buddies that was a horrible contract and they would regret it. I can't believe anyone truly thinks Lucic will rebound. He won't. But I get it - he's here now, might as well hope. That's what sports is. But get ready - he'll be the new Smith. Getting called out by most, defended by the parrots on 960, and generally being useless on the ice. I hope for you diehards that BT has some sort of plan beyond hope...

The Flames didn't acquire him with any kind of expectations. They simply swapped one bad contract for another. And saved $500k.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by dustygoon

So IF this NMC is still in place will basically mean we included Bennett or Mangiapane in this trade (albeit we lose the player in two years). We all cool with that?

This really depends

- Lucic could waive no consequence
- Seattle picks a defensemen - no consequence
- Seattle picks a forward. We lose the value between the 7th best forward vs the player Seattle would have selected otherwise

We likely lose the option to protect 4-4-1 as then it would be Lucic plus 3 other forwards.

Really they traded away flexibility and potentially the difference between the 7th and 8th best forwards.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by dustygoon

So IF this NMC is still in place will basically mean we included Bennett or Mangiapane in this trade (albeit we lose the player in two years). We all cool with that?

Lucic is a Vancouver boy who made a point of signing somewhere in the west (California, Vancouver, or Alberta) so he could be closer to family.

Orher than Vancouver itself, there's nowhere more fitting for him to want to be other than Seattle. Vegas' immediate success has also made expansion teams appear desireable from a wins standpoint.

I'm confident he won't screw us over. He also probably has a verbal, maybe even writte agreement in place on the matter.

[DazzlinDino]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

I was hoping this trade was a bad dream when I woke up this morning.

Yeah Brad should have got off the phone a long time ago.

[Flamette]

NMC or NTC, I don’t think it matters. If things aren’t going well I imagine he’d gladly waive his NMC for the expansion draft to be closer to home.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

Lucic had a great year in LA.

We traded for a bad contract but also gave up a bad contract. Neal didn’t work with Backlund/Tkachuk and Lindholm is so important to the top line he was never going to work with Monahan/Gaudreau. Neal in the bottom 6 is what he was last year.

The thing that makes me most upset is I do think Neal could find his game playing on the top 2 lines in Edmonton. Lucic at best is on the third line in Calgary so I don’t expect much from him.

Every article I have read outside of Alberta is calling this a big win for Edmonton because everyone knows that Neal has a better shot at rebounding than Lucic. The Flames are not a better or worse team today but I do think the Oilers are better.

Neal may well get 20 on the top line. In doing so does he bump off Chiasson, who got 22? In that case it's a wash in production IMO. The only way he helps is if he gels with someone on the second line.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by dustygoon

What are you talking about? We added a NMC to our roster that requires protection which is something we didn't have before. Pretty simple. It is one extra player to protect that we didn't have to. Ya....no #### we have two years to maneuver around. You want to hide your head in the sand for two years.....have at it.

Except that you don't know that we'll have to protect him (even though you keep saying it as an absolute).

Perhaps he waves his protection right. Or perhaps we trade him by then.

It's 2 years away and not a certainty. That's the point.

[CalgaryFan1988]

Originally Posted by GGG

Comparing a Calgary buyout to an Edmonton buyout is not the correct comparison. The correct comparison is Calgary pre-trade liability to Calgary post trade liability.

I was looking at Edmonton's POV, in response to posters suggesting Edmonton are further ahead because they can buyout Neal.

They in fact are not further ahead.

[mikephoen]

Lucic is closer to LTIR than Neal.

[monkeyman]

Originally Posted by btimbit

https://twitter.com/user/status/1152358565715140608

Originally Posted by Gundo

*shakes dice*

Come on 2017 Milan Lucic......

Honestly if ‘17 Lucic shows up and we get 45+ pats and someone who can chuck some serious knuckles at the guys who are hacking our top tier players what’s not to like and don’t say the cap hit because it is what it is. I don’t like my mortgage payment but I don’t keep using that as an excuse to hate my house.

17 Lucic you say? This has to be a good omen from the hockey gods.
Good news Milan, the clouds are beginning to clear.
If Lucic punches one of Kassian or Nurse just once, this trade is a win.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Yeah, Neal seems the better bet for a rebound. AND a buyout is more of an option for him. That's why the Flames should have received more for making this trade (the 3rd not be conditional for instance)

Yep this is my issue. It's almost like Holland just sat back and Treliving got desperate accepting what is basically a one for one swap with the Oilers retaining some salary. Holland was desperate to move that contract and Treliving should have stood firm as there should have been at the very least a 2nd round pick coming back. Neal is working out with Gary Roberts and will report to the Oilers in the best shape of his life and while that doesn't guarantee anything it's easy to see that his chances after just one bad season are much higher of rebounding than Lucic who has flatlined. I just don't get why after just one year Treliving couldn't wait another season to see if Neal could bounce back before taking in Lucic's contract. If he doesn't then they can make this deal next summer. I just don't understand the desperation here to do it this offseason as it reminds me of Darryl Sutter trading Phaneuf for a bunch of middling players rather than shopping him around the league for the best return possible like he woke up and had to trade Phaneuf that day. Seems like in Treliving's mind he had to trade Neal at all costs this offseason and this is the result.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Use your brain. 13.1 million over three years is one player at 4.4, not two “really good” players at 6.5 each.

Condescension noted, and you are always screaming at others for proper discourse. Hilarious. Of course when you do it...no problem. Hypocrisy is fun.

You are right, I did not calculate that correctly, I should be made fun of and admonished for it. Saturday morning fuzzies for sure, but an unacceptable mistake.

However, either way...thats a WHOLE lot of cap space that could be used to get and or help keep really good players. Better?

This is all minutiae to distract from the actual results from this deal however...and the reality is that this looks like it will be the single most monumental mistake of the Treliving legacy with the Flames.

Realllly hope i am wrong on that as well, but unfortunately using recent data sets and even the eye test, this is very unlikely.

[Jiggy_12]

The expansion has a lot of people rattled but it's being a little overblown. There is still a lot of time between now and then - a lot. Our roster will look quite different by then, regardless.

Everyone panicked last time, and Vegas took a UFA from us. And we used a spot to protect Curtis Lazar!

[CalgaryFan1988]

Originally Posted by stang

I don’t think of it as 6.5 for Neal.

5.75 for Neal, and .75 for Lucic to not play. Which I’m good with

You can look at it however you want, but it is essentially 6.5mil for Neal.

Even if he scores 20 goals playing with McDavid, that's terrible value.



Again, nobody wins this trade IMO. Both teams are worse than they were pre-trade.

[IamNotKenKing]

Originally Posted by dustygoon

What are you talking about? We added a NMC to our roster that requires protection which is something we didn't have before. Pretty simple. It is one extra player to protect that we didn't have to. Ya....no #### we have two years to maneuver around. You want to hide your head in the sand for two years.....have at it.

You are the one who suggested this means we are going to lose Bennett or Mangiapane. There are two years before that worry matters. It is not “hiding my head in the sand”, it is knowing there are lots of things to change in two years, so worrying about it now is silly.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by transplant99

No one should even hint that this is anything but a goddamn fiasco of a deal for the Flames.

Stunned is one word.

Slobberknockered is another.

BT is done.

Oh please.

The Flames opened up some cap space next year which will be instrumental in order to resign our RFAs. That is huge.

Player for player there is no difference. But when you think about Neal not being effective unless he players on the top line, and that not being an option, well what else can the Flames do? Nobody expected Lindholm to come in and post 80 points either.

Rumors are Neal had a bad attitude towards his role on the team. You won't have that issue with Lucic who has clearly said he wants to come here and do whatever it takes to win.

The Flames needed more toughness, something Neal didn't give them, and Lucic slots in better on line 3/4 than Neal did.

Lucic is from BC, and the Flames could easily get him to waive his NMC in order to be exposed in the expansion draft. Perhaps the Flames feel that Seattle might want someone from the area to be an ambassador for the sport similar to England in Vegas. The Flames could retain some salary for a couple years and Seattle gets their home-town boy who can help them build their on-ice and off ice brand.

Everyone saw the perfect fit that England was for Vegas, and the more I think about it Lucic would be a perfect fit in Seattle. If the Flames can make that happen it would protect one of our younger defensemen.

Obviously a lot has to go right, but I think the Flames are setting themselves up to work in that direction. At the very least they are providing Seattle with a player who is from the area, is experienced and is a good leader. Everything you need on a new team.

People need to think this through all the way. Not just 1 year through.

[mikephoen]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Except that you don't know that we'll have to protect him (even though you keep saying it as an absolute).

Perhaps he waves his protection right. Or perhaps we trade him by then.

It's 2 years away and not a certainty. That's the point.

I agree with all of this, and I’d like to add that I think that because of Vegas’ success in year one, a lot more players will waive their NMCs for Seattle. Players won’t fear finishing their careers on a horrible 10 win expansion team anymore, they’ll see an opportunity to flourish. Doesn’t hurt that Seattle is a really nice city either.

Lucic will waive in two years if it’s even an issue at all.

[handgroen]

Originally Posted by stang

It’s been widely reported that his physical and mental state coming into last year was poor due to 2 back to back cup final losses. This year he’s been training with Connor under Roberts.

I’m more thinking he’s going to be good with Nuge, and on the PP

i don't like the trade and getting lucic feels like it's net negative, but at least i'm no longer crossing my fingers for a bounce back from neal. he's below replacement level in all situations, you're gonna want to keep him away from your powerplay if you can, and nuge is now the guy saddled with neal for the year if he plays where you're thinking.


flames get the pleasure of lucic's contract sure, but as for the player, he can throw hits on the forecheck for all i care. he's not going to be counted on to wake up the mcdavid line or anything. it makes slotting lines way easier next year and we get a guy out of the room that was so toxic that we would rather sit him in an elimination game than risk him being out there. it really feels like james neal got fired by the calgary flames, and the worst kind of fired in the whole hockey world is being fired into edmonton.