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Old 10-03-2019, 09:51 PM   #1
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Default We are all Clowns - Joker Spoiler Talk

And here we go.....I loved it. For me the best superhero movie of the year. Is it my favorite of all time? No but pretty close. The acting was amazing and not just Phoenix but also De Niro was great. Really loved the DC Easter eggs, wish they could revisit this world again but I highly doubt that.
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Old 10-03-2019, 10:09 PM   #2
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I really enjoyed it too. It was beautifully filmed. Really felt like a film from that time. All the performances were great.

The “girlfriend” stuff was really telegraphed from the start so that reveal fell flat.

Wasn’t a fan of the Thomas Wayne portrayal. Maybe I’ve seen the Nolan movies too much but this Thomas was a jerk. The actor played a jerk in the Nolan film too...

I’d give it a solid 8/10. Beautiful, well acted and dark. Phoenix should win awards. A couple disappointing aspects but really good.
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Old 10-04-2019, 01:48 AM   #3
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I’m going to lean closer to a 6/10. Phoenix saves it, no doubt. Some moments were shocking or heart wrenching, but there’s a lot of nonsense in the movie. It handles mental illness in a very hamfisted way and really only provides superficial commentary, just stopping short of saying anything really interesting. It lacks depth, and maybe that’s because after the awards and the hype I went in with expectations that were too high, but it just seemed... eh.

The ending was a good payoff, though. If it ended with him in the cop car I would’ve borderline hated it. But the fan service was nice.

I definitely see where the commentary about it glorifying the school-shooter-type. The character comes out as a sort of folk hero, but all he does is blame everyone else for his problems and murder a few innocent people (and a few ‘guilty’ people, to be fair) because they ‘deserve it.’ There are parts where the movie obviously wants you to emphasise with Peck or even cheer for him, but I wasn’t convinced.

I don’t know. There are a few other minor things I loved and a few I hated. How this won Venice, I’m not sure I can even begin to understand. It is interesting though: if you took out the classic Batman scene and changed the names, there would be basically zero relevant connection to Batman or the Joker story. Peck is, I assume, the inspiration for whoever becomes the Joker based on how they set the ending, but I’m not entirely sure what the point of the movie really was.

Those are my thoughts. I don’t understand the love for it, but art is subjective, so to each their own. Phoenix was incredible though. Oscar worthy for sure.
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Old 10-04-2019, 07:11 AM   #4
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Some more thoughts on the film:

Loved the cinematography, Gotham felt like a real city you felt like you were there. The score was also fantastic as well as all the song choices. I also really felt the Wayne's death scene, it's probably the best one ever on screen. The chaos surrounding the theatre and the panic really helped create this claustrophobic feeling. Clearly this film took inspiration from Taxi Driver, but it also took notes from Killing Joke, The Dark Knight Returns, Year One and for me V for Vendetta. I think watching this movie and V for Vendetta back to back would be a great double header.

Does this film cause you to sympathize with Joker too much? I would say no more than Ledgers Joker in The Dark Knight. With Joker what makes him such a compelling character is that he hast he ability in one scene to make you laugh but in the next cause you sheer terror. With Ledger he made us laugh with a magic trick which drove a pencil through a mans eye, then scared us when he was interrogating the fake Batman in that shaky cam video and then make us laugh again when he dressed as the nurse. With this version of Joker he walks that line again and in one scene he is able to brutally kill a man with scissors and in the same scene he plays with the other clown with his fake out like he's going to get him and make us laugh.

Also Phoenix's transformation from meek Fleck to confident and strong Joker was also great. He should win the Oscar for best actor.
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Old 10-04-2019, 08:24 AM   #5
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The Wayne death didn't have impact for me because I actually wanted Thomas Wayne to die. He just wasn't a likeable character. Every other portrayal of the character didn't have him looking down on poor people. Was it just Arthur's perception though? Were we seeing what he wanted us to see?

Ledger's joker was not sympathetic at all. You can definitely empathize Phoenix's character much more because you get his background and reasons for why he is what he is.

While I liked it more the PepsiFree, I think there are still flaws.

I was listening to Marc Maron's podcast yesterday and he spoke about how a scene he did with Deniro was cut because Arthur wasn't in it. The director wanted every scene in the movie to involve either Arthur directly or his perception of the world.
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Old 10-04-2019, 08:45 AM   #6
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In regards to Thomas Wayne, I think it's unclear if he is a bad guy but Arthur thought he was. You have to see it from his perspective, this random guy shows up at his house and is creepy with his son and assaults Alfred. Plus his Mother maybe/maybe not made up a story about how they slept together and Arthur was his son. That part wasn't clear to me if it was true or not.

In the latest run in the Batman comics, Thomas Wayne has turned full villain and has been battling against Bruce Wayne. He's from an alternate time line where in the alley Bruce is the one who is shot and killed and he turns into Batman and Martha is so shattered from grief she turns into the Joker. It's a controversial move making Thomas a villain, but it has been done before.

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Old 10-04-2019, 09:58 AM   #7
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In regards to Thomas Wayne, I think it's unclear if he is a bad guy but Arthur thought he was. You have to see it from his perspective, this random guy shows up at his house and is creepy with his son and assaults Alfred. Plus his Mother maybe/maybe not made up a story about how they slept together and Arthur was his son. That part wasn't clear to me if it was true or not.

In the latest run in the Batman comics, Thomas Wayne has turned full villain and has been battling against Bruce Wayne. He's from an alternate time line where in the alley Bruce is the one who is shot and killed and he turns into Batman and Martha is so shattered from grief she turns into the Joker. It's a controversial move making Thomas a villain, but it has been done before.
Interesting, it seemed pretty clear to me. The adoption papers, her being committed for delusional something or other. If anything the delusional was part of the only worthwhile commentary the movie attempted to make (that of inter generational trauma).
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Old 10-04-2019, 10:08 AM   #8
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Interesting, it seemed pretty clear to me. The adoption papers, her being committed for delusional something or other. If anything the delusional was part of the only worthwhile commentary the movie attempted to make (that of inter generational trauma).
True, but there is a scene when Arthur finds a picture of his mom and on the back it says "You have a lovely smile " - TW . That led me to believe that maybe TW did forge all the documents and Arthur really was his son.
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Old 10-04-2019, 05:05 PM   #9
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Just saw it.

That was overall a very strange movie experience. At times it felt like it wasn't based on comic book at all. Then other times, it would have to be in a comic book universe, for example, treating a murderer like a political hero just wouldn't happen in real life...then again maybe that was part of Arthur's delusions too.

As far as the depiction of Joker, there were definitely some pretty great aspects. The fact that Phoenix was in every scene really added to the sense of surrealism. You weren't sure what was real and what wasn't. Very much like the Joker in the comics, who has no single origin.

Overall, it wasn't something you were really supposed to enjoy. You can say that about a lot of great films though. For example, "Doubt" was great film, but probably one of the least enjoyable things I've ever watched.

I also don't think that you were supposed to be cheering for the Joker at any time in this. A lot of the other characters in the film are jerks, but how are you supposed to know what is and what isn't real. The Joker's odd behaviour also kind of rationalizes the way some others treat him, or at the very least it's a somewhat realistic depiction. Maybe that's all the point though? Maybe the movie could have benefited from showing more negative reactions to the Joker's behaviour, but maybe that would have taken away from the surrealism of the film too?
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Old 10-04-2019, 05:07 PM   #10
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True, but there is a scene when Arthur finds a picture of his mom and on the back it says "You have a lovely smile " - TW . That led me to believe that maybe TW did forge all the documents and Arthur really was his son.
It would have been a lot easier for his mom to forge that note, than it would have been to forge all the adoption papers. Obviously, it was meant to be purposely ambiguous.
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Old 10-04-2019, 09:57 PM   #11
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And that was worth a theater ticket. Impressive movie.

As for the Wayne stuff, meh, just a take on silver spoon ignorance. Calling an entire class of people clowns with fully understanding the impact. Thomas Wayne created Joker, Joker created Batman, pretty good joke.

Phoenix's Joker is one of the best of a short few. Just a step below Jack's and Ledgers. Like a small teeny step.
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Old 10-05-2019, 12:13 AM   #12
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So, the paranoia and fear over incels shooting up a theatre showing this movie is getting to ridiculous heights.

First, a local cosplayer has his picture (along with the Saddledome...) plastered around as Landmark theatres in the US decide to disallow masks, facepaint and "any prop that might make another guest uncomfortable".

Then, apparently Orange 30 theatre in California decides to take it a step further. I can't verify if this is 100% legit or not, but they also have a no masks, makeup, props policy on their homepage

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Old 10-05-2019, 12:20 AM   #13
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Weird, I didnt know going to watch a movie alone was a scary thing, for other people.

Although I did find the two girls front row cackling out joker laughs at the beginning and the end of the movie a bit unsettling but got over it. And the amount of joker laughs in the parking lot was funny.
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Old 10-05-2019, 03:42 AM   #14
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And that was worth a theater ticket. Impressive movie.

As for the Wayne stuff, meh, just a take on silver spoon ignorance. Calling an entire class of people clowns with fully understanding the impact. Thomas Wayne created Joker, Joker created Batman, pretty good joke.

Phoenix's Joker is one of the best of a short few. Just a step below Jack's and Ledgers. Like a small teeny step.
Thought about the Wayne stuff more, as well as a lot of the other comic book the elements that are just unrealistic. I think it added to the movie, in that it allowed a deeper dive into the Joker's psyche without the bounds of regular laws of reality.
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Old 10-05-2019, 04:17 AM   #15
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If I had one complaint it’s that there was a lot of buildup for a fairly predictable ending. The movie probably could have been half an hour shorter and accomplished the same thing.

Overall though I enjoyed the film. It was refreshing to see a “superhero” movie that felt like it could actually happen.
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Old 10-05-2019, 08:21 AM   #16
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I have been thinking about this for a while to figure out what I think.

After a lot of thought I think it would be a better movie without him being the joker. If you get rid of the comic book ties I think the movie would be better and keep you immersed more.

It’s also little shallow in its treatment of mental illness.

Phoenix was great and I like that the movie was clearly his perspective and using that as an unreliable narrator.

I’m interested in how this affects comic book movies going forward. Will this lead to more character study as comic book movies or less non comic book movies being made?
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Old 10-05-2019, 09:56 AM   #17
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I have been thinking about this for a while to figure out what I think.

After a lot of thought I think it would be a better movie without him being the joker. If you get rid of the comic book ties I think the movie would be better and keep you immersed more.

It’s also little shallow in its treatment of mental illness.

Phoenix was great and I like that the movie was clearly his perspective and using that as an unreliable narrator.

I’m interested in how this affects comic book movies going forward. Will this lead to more character study as comic book movies or less non comic book movies being made?
Agree on everything. Your second point is one I’ve been thinking about a lot since. If you sever all connections to the Batman universe from the film, you lose nothing, and I feel like you would actually gain a little more freedom to explore.

That said, I think it would also cause the movie to be held accountable for the issues inside of it. The direction isn’t great and they handle the mental illness and “incel/shooter” angles with remarkable weakness. I think a lot of that is excused because “it’s a comic book movie” or “it’s the Joker, what do you expect.” I already find those excuses kind of weak, especially considering as far as I can tell this character isn’t “The Joker” at all, but more the inspiration behind the character we know.
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Old 10-06-2019, 11:57 AM   #18
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Agree on everything. Your second point is one I’ve been thinking about a lot since. If you sever all connections to the Batman universe from the film, you lose nothing, and I feel like you would actually gain a little more freedom to explore.

That said, I think it would also cause the movie to be held accountable for the issues inside of it. The direction isn’t great and they handle the mental illness and “incel/shooter” angles with remarkable weakness. I think a lot of that is excused because “it’s a comic book movie” or “it’s the Joker, what do you expect.” I already find those excuses kind of weak, especially considering as far as I can tell this character isn’t “The Joker” at all, but more the inspiration behind the character we know.
The connection to an established comic book universe allows the audience to suspend their disbelief and play by the rules of the Batman universe. Reality gets thrown out the window in many parts of the film, and the audience can still ponder whether those things are really happening.

It also adds to the ending of the movie, where the audience is unsure if any of it happened or if it's all in the Joker's mind.

You could pull the concept outside of the Batman universe, but then you'd be a lot more limited on where you could go. You would end up with a movie more like the Machinist, Momento, or the American Psycho.
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Old 10-06-2019, 05:21 PM   #19
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I really liked it.

Loved the score, don’t need to even mention how good Phoenix was. Loved it that they stayed true enough to the character without needing a bunch of lame Easter eggs and cameos. The movie benefited so much by limiting the amount of direct Batman references. I read a comment that they should have had the psychologist at the end be Harley. Ugh that would have ruined it in so many ways. So glad they didn’t shoehorn in a bunch of silly fan service.

The black comedy was well done. It felt awkward to laugh at times. I knew going in thanks to stupid google news headlines spoilers that some of the movie may not be real but thought it was, for the most part, well done. Left just enough open to interpretation without undermining the story that we saw as viewers.

My only dislike was the portrayal of Thomas Wayne as a dbag. It would have had way more impact if his death was tragic. Instead I was ambivalent at best. You might even say his death was justified given what a scumbag he was. The movie, I feel, would have benefitted from having Wayne be more similar to Nolan’s version and by having a heartless scumbag like Rutger Hauer’s character in Batman Begins.

To address some points I’ve seen in the media and ITT. Anyone complaining about the senseless violence is crazy. This movie barely registered as violence compared to network tv. Even when factoring in the motivation behind the killings it wasn’t that dark. Are we really mad that he killed a few yuppie dbag Wall Street bankers? I’d only be slightly upset if that happened in real life! (j/k)

I don’t get the incel BS at all. Seems like media sensationalism to me. This movie has almost nothing to do with incel culture.

Mental illness I thought they handled perfectly. If you name a specific illness then the movie is destined to fail. There is no mental illness in existence that makes people into the Joker. If they’d chosen a specific illness or treated mental illness with 100% realism, then there’s no way they could ever turn the character into anything resembling the joker and then what’s the point of making the movie in the first place. Then again they didn’t totally dismiss it either and did portray some of the difficulties and stigma that people with mental illness have to live with. If they weren’t going to go for the whole chemical bath angle, which wouldn’t really work given the fact they wanted it to be more earnest and grounded, I don’t see how you make this movie without mental illness playing a factor.

It could have been worse. They could have done something like Silver Linings Playbook and used a real mental illness and just #### all over people with bipolar disorder by portraying them as these wacky loners who suffer from a minor annoyance that’s curable by falling in love with Jennifer Lawrence. Now that’s offensive.

The comments about the movie being better if it wasn’t joker related are baffling. Asinine even. Why would you even go if you wanted a movie that had nothing in common with the comic book world? Just go watch a film that does deal with mental illness in a more realistic way, one that addresses a real mental illness and has little to no fantastical elements to it. Its like saying suicide squad would have been better if it was a low budget indie flick about an impressionable psychologist who falls in love with one of her insane patients. Yeah it might have been a better movie but then it’s not Suicide Squad is it?

I don’t know if it’s best picture material but then again neither was TDK. I could definitely see an acting nom though. Wouldn’t be the first time two actors have won Oscars for portraying the same character in different movies.

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Old 10-06-2019, 07:07 PM   #20
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I think a lot of the “they had to do it like this/it’s fine the way it is! It’s the joker!” laziness in reviews is strange. Arthur Fleck is either A. Not “the” Joker, or B. A version of “the” Joker nobody has ever seen before. Which means no dramatic notes are owed to the Joker. The character doesn’t have to be a certain way, nor does it make any sense to excuse the actions as “well it’s Joker.”

Two things I’ve also found pretty sadly funny over the weekend:
1. Theatres going full panic mode thinking this is going to bring 1000 shooters out of the woodwork
2. How upset some of the people who love the movie are getting over every single critique. I mean, this movie will passionately appeal to a certain type of “everyone else is the problem!” individual, but damn, it’s still funny to watch how sensitive people are on both sides. Like... it’s a movie.
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