[News] Islanders arena bid selected for Belmont Park

[Table 5]

Originally Posted by Hot_Flatus

The ride was certainly nowhere near as long as a trip to red deer as you suggest. Trains from the Island run frequently and most are well outfitted with plenty of individual seats and room if you compare them to the shabby LRT cars we use in Calgary or even standard subway cars in Manhattan.

It sure can be ...and then some. It all depends on where you live of course since Long Island is massive, but my in-laws live in the middle of the Island (and I used to live in Brooklyn, so have done the journey dozens of times) and the train ride is always around 1:45-2 hours...and that's a direct ride with a quick transfer. For most people, it's doable as a special occasion, but you're not going get a ton of Islanders to do that a couple of times a week.

I do like the LIRR though. I'm not sure I'd call the trains "well outfitted" but they do the job well. Belmont Park being close to the LIRR station is crucial.

[sureLoss]

Chris Johnston @reporterchris
John Tavares is front and centre at the press conference announcing details of the #isles new arena at Belmont Park.

[Moneyhands23]

Originally Posted by sureLoss

Chris Johnston @reporterchris
John Tavares is front and centre at the press conference announcing details of the #isles new arena at Belmont Park.

Gteat news for that team and the Nhl

[Finger Cookin]

I'm having a really hard time superimposing that map of the proposed development over the area in Google Maps. I can't quite wrap my head around it.

[RM14]

Originally Posted by Finger Cookin

I'm having a really hard time superimposing that map of the proposed development over the area in Google Maps. I can't quite wrap my head around it.

Spoiler!

Kind of reminds me of Stampede Park!

[getbak]

Originally Posted by Finger Cookin

I'm having a really hard time superimposing that map of the proposed development over the area in Google Maps. I can't quite wrap my head around it.

In the image on the story, north is on the left, not on top.

Here's the map: https://goo.gl/maps/hW8cpowhw662


The grandstand is on the south side of the race track, with the treed area south of the grandstand. The new arena will go in between the train station on the west and the trees on the east. The parking lot south of Hempstead will remain a parking lot.


EDIT:

Something like this...

Spoiler!

[monkeyman]

Originally Posted by Finger Cookin

I'm having a really hard time superimposing that map of the proposed development over the area in Google Maps. I can't quite wrap my head around it.

What is this, an arena for ants?

[sureLoss]

Randi Marshall @randimarshall
On finances: New York Arena Partners - group includes #isles, Sterling and Oak View - will finance the entire project - $1 billion total. They'll get a 49 yr lease and will pay $40 mil in rent.


Wonder about how much property tax they will have to pay if any.

[sureLoss]

More renderings:

Spoiler!

[monkeyman]

Originally Posted by sureLoss

Randi Marshall @randimarshall
On finances: New York Arena Partners - group includes #isles, Sterling and Oak View - will finance the entire project - $1 billion total. They'll get a 49 yr lease and will pay $40 mil in rent.


Wonder about how much property tax they will have to pay if any.

Doesn't make sense, hockey Arenas are only good for 30 years.

[jaydub74]

Interesting information and great renderings, looks like an awesome project and arena.

I can't image the Flames are thrilled with resent announcements made by both Seattle and New York. Two arena projects, with private funding. I don't see any way the City backs away from its position now.

The Flames will probably do as they said, "do nothing" and try and wait this thing out but by all appearances, if the Flames want a new arena they're going to be building it themselves.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by jaydub74

Interesting information and great renderings, looks like an awesome project and arena.

I can't image the Flames are thrilled with resent announcements made by both Seattle and New York. Two arena projects, with private funding. I don't see any way the City backs away from its position now.

Right, because Calgary has a metro-area population of 20 million, just like New York.

[Cappy]

Originally Posted by sureLoss

More renderings:

Spoiler!

No Loge seating?

What kind of crap stadium is this? I certainly want to enjoy watching the game on a bar top table like I haven't left the pub!

[Yoho]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

Right, because Calgary has a metro-area population of 20 million, just like New York.

How does that argue his point?

[Bunk]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

Right, because Calgary has a metro-area population of 20 million, just like New York.

How does our attendance and average ticket price compare? How many other arenas would our arena be competing with for events?

[Fire]

Originally Posted by jaydub74

I can't image the Flames are thrilled with resent announcements made by both Seattle and New York. Two arena projects, with private funding. I don't see any way the City backs away from its position now.

The Flames will probably do as they said, "do nothing" and try and wait this thing out but by all appearances, if the Flames want a new arena they're going to be building it themselves.

0% chance the Flames are building an arena themselves.

[NiklasSundblad]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

Right, because Calgary has a metro-area population of 20 million, just like New York.

And yet they average 5000 fewer attendees per game than the Flames with ticket prices an average of 12 USD lower than the Flames. Do you think this arena is going to cause concert tours to abandon MSG and Barclay's in favour of Belmont?

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Originally Posted by Yoho

How does that argue his point?

Whether that's the right point or not, people need to stop thinking of business cases for whether the city does or doesn't (or at what level) contribute to a project like this as a one size fits all. What happens in Seattle or New York, while I won't say completely irrelevant as there are things that do overlap, but they aren't really great comparisons for Calgary. Point being, the business case for a new rink (from a municipal perspective) in Belmont, does not directly translate to the business case in Calgary.......at all.

Lots of factors go into it, but people seem to be ignoring the fact that major Canadian cities, and specifically major Western Canadian cities are far more "isolated" than a lot of the cities in question. For example, how far do the residents of long Island have to travel and how accessible are other facilities that could host the events (hockey and non) an arena draws to their communities? Despite the earlier conversations in here about travel, the answer is not very far relatively speaking to enjoy the Barclay Center, MSG, arena's in NJ, and much of it accessible via public transit. This reduce the public need for facility directly in their area, but on the flip side could increase demand from local businesses to try and keep that traffic closer to home.

That's not the same for us isolated residents in Calgary. If we don't have a rink in Calgary, we have a 3hr car or paid bus ride to the nearest facility up in Edmonton, and that's only because they decided to fund one with partial public money. If it wasn't for that, the answer would eventually have been 10 hrs by drive or 1hr by plane to Vancouver. This factor alone drives up th cities stake in a new arena in Calgary IMO and their "need" for one if they want to attract events and sporting events to the region that drive up quality of life of it's citizens and help drive the economy by having money get spent on local businesses (as well as attract companies to set up shop here).

Of course the city should use this as an example of a deal they might like, as should the Flames use Edmonton as a yard stick. But people really need to start wrapping their heads round the fact that the business case for public money on projects like this are far from a one size fits all approach. What works on Long Island or Edmonton isn't necessarily the right solution for Calgary.

Also, I don't really know, but that $40M lease for 49 years sounds like a pretty sweetheart deal to me for that much land in Belmont (I could be wrong) and as others raised the tax implications would be nice to know. Just a note that "public" funding can come in many different forms, from direct investment, to tax breaks or sweetheart deals on things like leases. It certainly skews public perception if you do it creatively, but in the long run it ends up being same #### different pile.

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by Cleveland Steam Whistle

Whether that's the right point or not, people need to stop thinking of business cases for whether the city does or doesn't (or at what level) contribute to a project like this as a one size fits all.

I tend to agree with that. The Flames aren't going to look at Seattle or Long Island and say "whelp... now we have to do that" but by the same extension Calgary also doesn't have to look at Edmonton and say "Gee whiz, I guess we gotta we gotta pay what they do".

I'll say that they're rhetorical points against the Flames (so merely a PR problem)... but that's all they are since I don't think anyone really believed that.

I will note the 49 year lease... if the Flames want to accept an ironclad 49 year lease agreement and prorate what they claim was their contribution out 49 years I think we can do business on an arena quickly.

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Originally Posted by Parallex

I tend to agree with that. The Flames aren't going to look at Seattle or Long Island and say "whelp... now we have to do that" but by the same extension Calgary also doesn't have to look at Edmonton and say "Gee whiz, I guess we gotta we gotta pay what they do".
.

I agree. And I also think this has very little to do with precedence either (not suggesting that was your point). People also need to start looking at the city as a business as well, because they are. They spend money, invest money etc.., they aren't all just about contributing to social programs. What I mean by that is following:

- What would the city do if the Flames left tomorrow (not saying they will). Would they actually invest in an arena and build one for Calgary? While I don't know for sure, I strongly believe the answer is yes. Maybe not at the same scale as what the Flames want, or on the exact same time frame (maybe they'd milk the Dome for longer than the Flames want to), but I believe the city would be investing in a reasonably sized facility for this city because they believe it would be beneficial (and likely trying to attract a main tenant for it).

People are looking at this as the Flames looking for a hand out from the city. Like it or not, it's not likely that. It's two parties who both want a somewhat similar facility (although probably not identical) who are both likely better off if they compromise on some of their varying needs or desires and split the cost on the venture (when I say split, I don't mean it has to be 50/50, I won't pretend to know the right split, but I do believe the Flames have more of a stake in this). For both it will be cheaper to partner than the alternative of taking this on by themselves.

But right now both sides seem to be looking for the complete win and playing a game of chicken. The city wondering if they can get the big bad private business to pay all of it for them, and get them to stick it exactly where the city wants, and the Flames seemingly going down then relocation threat route to get the city to cave on more than they might need to. It's frustrating to watch from the sidelines, but have to believe cooler heads will eventually prevail...........right?