Alberta Election Thread - Election Day April 16 2019

[Dion]

Originally Posted by GGG

You are assuming that the AP votes naturally would go to the UCP. Perhaps that poll suggests that the AP and NDP are splitting the Center and Left votes with the Conservatives coming up the middle to win.

That is correct. I'm assuming the AP would get all the dissatisfied UCP voters who don't like Kenney. Never gave thought to NDP voters moving to the UCP or AP.

Good point

[btimbit]

Originally Posted by gasman

Is it actually?

Something like a drivers license might be handy, but I imagine logistics of having it accepted as photo ID outside of Alberta is suspect. So what's the point

And as far as his reference to Alberta health care cards, the paper cards do suck, but there is a super simple answer. Take a photo of it. Save it either in an album or in a specific card storage app.

And then we don't need to spend millions of dollars developing a provincial app.

The premise is sexy, but this is a stupid waste of money.

One idea behind it and where it saves money is that it would help prevent fraud. The paper ones are too easy to fake

[gasman]

Originally Posted by btimbit

One idea behind it and where it saves money is that it would help prevent fraud. The paper ones are too easy to fake

Is that a real problem? Does the cost of fraudulent cards actually amount to enough to warrant a more secure card.

I haven't shown my actual card in over two years, just read them the number from the picture on my phone. If fraud is such a concern, wouldn't they at least implement a system to check the actual cards as is today?

I can guess exactly how a government driven app would go. Millions of dollars for a sub standard, buggy platform.

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by gasman

I can guess exactly how a government driven app would go. Millions of dollars for a sub standard, buggy platform.

Is the AP suggesting an app or an all in one card? The quote transplant shared said a card.

[gasman]

Originally Posted by iggy_oi

Is the AP suggesting an app or an all in one card? The quote transplant shared said a card.

https://edmontonjournal.com/news/pol...ch-in-edmonton

However, the Alberta Party released plans Sunday to do away with paper and plastic government ID cards in favour of digital identification. According to a Sunday news release, the plan would see plastic and paper identification for health care, drivers’ licenses, provincial ID and the Alberta WIN cards all converted digitally to a “government identification app with a portal to allow Albertans more flexibility when presenting ID.”

[PepsiFree]

nm

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by gasman

https://edmontonjournal.com/news/pol...ch-in-edmonton

I think an all in one card would work well but an app has a lot of issues(costs, updates etc) and would not be in favour of that. Although I’d be interested to see what would happen during a traffic stop when you tell the officer you can’t produce your licence because your phone is dead. Free pass or failure to produce?

[btimbit]

Originally Posted by gasman

Is that a real problem? Does the cost of fraudulent cards actually amount to enough to warrant a more secure card.

I haven't shown my actual card in over two years, just read them the number from the picture on my phone. If fraud is such a concern, wouldn't they at least implement a system to check the actual cards as is today?

I can guess exactly how a government driven app would go. Millions of dollars for a sub standard, buggy platform.

You'd also save the cost of mailing and printing these cards, similar to how they save by having one license plate instead of two. Not to mention the redundancy of having two seperate databases for something like your driver's license and your health card, no reason they can't be just one.

I think articles on it so far are poorly worded as well. People more familiar with the AP are saying the digital thing is something for the future and the first step is just making the drivers license and health card one card.

But on the fraud, there's been two auditor general reports on it. In 2004 it was estimated up to 80 million a year could be lost from it. In 2015 there was another report that likened the cards to a credit card with limit and suggested at least having them expire but that got axed last spring.

There's also been issues of people from Montana coming up to use the free healthcare. Communities near the US border report having more health care cards on file than people living near there.

https://nationalpost.com/news/canada...-alberta-great

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmon...neral-1.509819

And something on health care fraud in general
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3537805/

I read another article earlier as well (that of course I can't find now) that suggested some links between Alberta health card technology being the oldest in Canada, and the fact that Alberta spends the most per person on health care in Canada. It touched on some of these points as well, but was mostly just hypothesis I believe

[gasman]

Originally Posted by btimbit

You'd also save the cost of mailing and printing these cards, similar to how they save by having one license plate instead of two. Not to mention the redundancy of having two seperate databases for something like your driver's license and your health card, no reason they can't be just one.

I think articles on it so far are poorly worded as well. People more familiar with the AP are saying the digital thing is something for the future and the first step is just making the drivers license and health card one card.

But on the fraud, there's been two auditor general reports on it. In 2004 it was estimated up to 80 million a year could be lost from it. In 2015 there was another report that likened the cards to a credit card with limit and suggested at least having them expire but that got axed last spring.

There's also been issues of people from Montana coming up to use the free healthcare. Communities near the US border report having more health care cards on file than people living near there.

https://nationalpost.com/news/canada...-alberta-great

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmon...neral-1.509819


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3537805/

Fair enough, I found at least one of those articles after my last post.

I still question that if the problem is so bad, why aren't the service providers doing more to ensure cards are legit. For instance, I haven't shown my card in over 2 years. I have a photo on my phone and generally either hand it over or just read the receptionist my number.

So does it follow that making the card more fraud proof reduces fraud if the providers aren't checking them anyways... I would assume they are at least running my Alberta healthcare number against some kind of database as it is.

I could potentially get behind a single card, I don't think I can get behind an app.

[btimbit]

Originally Posted by gasman

Fair enough, I found at least one of those articles after my last post.

I still question that if the problem is so bad, why aren't the service providers doing more to ensure cards are legit. For instance, I haven't shown my card in over 2 years. I have a photo on my phone and generally either hand it over or just read the receptionist my number.

So does it follow that making the card more fraud proof reduces fraud if the providers aren't checking them anyways... I would assume they are at least running my Alberta healthcare number against some kind of database as it is.

I could potentially get behind a single card, I don't think I can get behind an app.

It's definitely something that I'd like to see more research done on before just doing it and hoping it saves money. Hopefully someone at least does that.

NDP had plans to at least switch to a plastic card with an expiry date but that got cancelled last year it looks like.

https://globalnews.ca/news/4155241/h...alberta-paper/

Honestly to me the easiest and cheapest solution looks like just combining it with the drivers license and calling it a day.

Would be neat to see if the AP explains their plan a little better too. Every article on it says something different so far. Damn weekend journalists

[Reggie Dunlop]

No brainer.

One Government Services card with an option to have a digital copy.

Driver's licenses used to be paper at one time too.

Paper health cards can be easily forged so any issues of fraud are dealt with by the authorities anyway.

[Ozy_Flame]

100% what Reggie said. One government services card to handle all citizen affairs. You can also just have a digital copy for reference purposes if needed.

I can't see this not saving costs - much in the same vein as the MyHealth Records. Even if it doesn't, some things aren't about money but simplicity and efficiency. Plus this is what the world is moving towards. Just makes too much sense at this point.

[gasman]

Originally Posted by btimbit

It's definitely something that I'd like to see more research done on before just doing it and hoping it saves money. Hopefully someone at least does that.

NDP had plans to at least switch to a plastic card with an expiry date but that got cancelled last year it looks like.

https://globalnews.ca/news/4155241/h...alberta-paper/

Honestly to me the easiest and cheapest solution looks like just combining it with the drivers license and calling it a day.

Would be neat to see if the AP explains their plan a little better too. Every article on it says something different so far. Damn weekend journalists

How do you deal with kids? Do they get issued an ID card when they are born? Do they get added to parents Cards? How do you deal with expanded families?

Those are all questions that will need answers before we start combining cards. Maybe they aren't that hard to answer, but I am skeptical that this becomes anything other than a money hole.

[btimbit]

Originally Posted by gasman

How do you deal with kids? Do they get issued an ID card when they are born? Do they get added to parents Cards? How do you deal with expanded families?

Those are all questions that will need answers before we start combining cards. Maybe they aren't that hard to answer, but I am skeptical that this becomes anything other than a money hole.

Probably something similar to the current Alberta ID card that looks like a license I'd imagine

[gasman]

Originally Posted by iggy_oi

Is the AP suggesting an app or an all in one card? The quote transplant shared said a card.

Originally Posted by btimbit

Probably something similar to the current Alberta ID card that looks like a license I'd imagine

But your not going to issue photo ID to a baby. And a Baby needs a health care card. So a new solution would need to be proposed

[btimbit]

Yeah definitely not something I have an answer too, but seems like something that'd be fairly easy to figure out in the grand scheme of this

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by gasman

But your not going to issue photo ID to a baby. And a Baby needs a health care card. So a new solution would need to be proposed

I’ve long thought that it’s ridiculous that dependants aren’t listed on their parents’ cards. Especially since you aren’t supposed to have multiple copies of a single healthcare card.

[gasman]

Regardless, I like the "idea" of a common card and app access, but I have 0 confidence it could be pulled off at the government level without turning into some sort of scandal about wasted money (like Phoenix or the long gun registry (the boondoggle part, politics of that one aside))

I also think implementation of such a system would be equally as bad across any of the party's.

I have a feeling that this is going to be a long 3 weeks.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by gasman

But your not going to issue photo ID to a baby. And a Baby needs a health care card. So a new solution would need to be proposed

Why not?

A baby has a photo on a passport. I think it was good for two years instead of five. I agree the photo doesn’t add value but having it blank or having a picture are simple solutions.

[Slava]

I like the card and I know we discussed this on CP before (I think in the new drivers license thread?). I guess my question is more from a priorities standpoint. Sure, great, one card to rule them all. But what about actually important issues?